going to start making 224 swaging dies

[uncleskippy]

Dan,

They are looking great. Keep up the hard work.

Thanks

[DukeInFlorida]

Keep in mind that danr has no practical experience with designing swaging dies. His intentions are good. But in this instance, a little knowledge is perhaps a bit dangerous. Especially when he's working with a vendor who know less than he does about swaging.

There's a reason that Corbin dies are so expensive, and take as long as they do to get made.

If danr was an experienced machinist, with a long history of working with quality tool steels (instead of threaded rod as a raw material), and knowledgeable with the design parameters of a proper swaging die, well maybe this would be something.

However, I am not seeing any evidence that any of this is going right. This stuff is a LOT different from "pimping a R/C car, electroplating bullets with copper, and the various other videos" that danr has produced. No offense, bud, but methinks you are a bit over your head on this one.

1018 Eh!

Well I hate to tell you Dan, but there isn't enough carbon in 1018 to heat treat it.

You can let it soak in furnace at 1800 F till the cows come home and quench into whatever you want...............but it isn't going to harden!

So, unless they are going to case harden these dies, their just stringing you a line.

RRR

Danr,

You stated that a final sizing die is being provided as an “all else, this will save you” and further, that you would not “fire a Corbin round without putting it through a sizing die first”.

I am of the opinion that if the pointing die is made the correct size, a sizing die is not necessary. Also, pointing dies if hardened correctly should not wear excessively and should hold their dimension over tens of thousands of swages.

Corbin does not provide sizing dies because they are not required (I have several sets). They provide test boolets made with their dies (when you get the dies) that have passed their quality assurance measurements. The first thing I do is to measure these test boolits and then the first boolits I make with the dies to ensure they are the correct dimensions. I have not seen a set of dies from Corbin that have been questionable but I always measure anyway.

I would also say that anyone contemplating swaging should have a micrometer that reads down to .0001 and know how to use it. Look up the SAAMI specifications for a 22 center fire boolet and if the final boolet is larger than the specification, replace the set of swaging dies. Boolets larger than SAAMI specifications should not be shot as they can/will lead to exceptionally high chamber pressures. It is up to all of us to be as knowledgeable and safe as possible.

Sizing a finished bullet is not a good practice for accuracy. When swaging boolets, the lead core is a “dead material”. In other words when it is swaged it stays at that dimension and has no springiness to it or memory. On the other hand, both brass and copper have spring or elasticity to them and will spring back a slight amount after being swaged. With all this being said, swaging a bullet is always an act of pushing the lead to a larger diameter and the copper or brass expanding and then elastically spring back to hold the lead solidly in place. Given this, sizing will most likely result in a core that may be lose in the jacket.

This is my two cents.

Martin

[PatMarlin]

Interesting thread, and learning a lot about swaging from it. The other bad thing about that threaded rod is I think the Chicoms put any metals that's swept off the floor in it.

I've used it and you can be drilling along and wham- hit something HARD! It machines horribly and very inconsistent.

[xfoxofshogo]

Keep in mind that danr has no practical experience with designing swaging dies. His intentions are good. But in this instance, a little knowledge is perhaps a bit dangerous. Especially when he's working with a vendor who know less than he does about swaging.

There's a reason that Corbin dies are so expensive, and take as long as they do to get made.

If danr was an experienced machinist, with a long history of working with quality tool steels (instead of threaded rod as a raw material), and knowledgeable with the design parameters of a proper swaging die, well maybe this would be something.

However, I am not seeing any evidence that any of this is going right. This stuff is a LOT different from "pimping a R/C car, electroplating bullets with copper, and the various other videos" that danr has produced. No offense, bud, but methinks you are a bit over your head on this one.

lol im holding back if you fell that way go buy a set of corbins then

[danr]

these are not screw stock.. they are 1018 that has been heat treated to 54 RC.

making swage dies is no rocket science. why some make it out to be more than what it really is, is beyond me.

thanks
Dan

[danr]

in the following weeks, i will be doing a video of a test shooting of swaged bullets from these dies, as well as some ballistics gell tests.

i've already planned a test shooting of them for this weekend, ballistics gel test next week.


dan

[martin]

Danr,

With all due respect, you still have not explained how your shop managed to heat treat 1018 steel to 54 Rockwell?

Please advise.

Thank You,
Martin

[Utah Shooter]

I am going to have to say that look pretty weird to my eye. Especially 6 and 7. How did those come out the way that they did? How are these being ejected again from the point form?

What would you say the weight of those are? Are you going to make projectiles and try to keep it consistant?

Looks like the operation of de rim, squirt and swage are working good. Sorry for all of the questions.

[danr]

Danr,

With all due respect, you still have not explained how your shop managed to heat treat 1018 steel to 54 Rockwell?

Please advise.

Thank You,
Martin

the production company will not release the exact forumla that they use, its a proprietary information. but they did say they are using a carborizing with quench and temper method.

beyond that, i cannot give any thing more.

i can toss these dies agianst the concreate floor for you, and demonstrate they do not mash up.

thanks,
Dan

[danr]

I am going to have to say that look pretty weird to my eye. Especially 6 and 7. How did those come out the way that they did? How are these being ejected again from the point form?

What would you say the weight of those are? Are you going to make projectiles and try to keep it consistant?

Looks like the operation of de rim, squirt and swage are working good. Sorry for all of the questions.

overall there are some things that still need to be address with the bullets.. the bottom punch for instance is about .002 off in size.. so the bottoms came out a little wierd. the top punch was about .001 - .002 off on size as well.

however, the ogive is an exact #6.

for the test shoot rounds i will be keeping them consistant, and i'll be aiming for a 55 grain bullet. i'll post pics of them when they are done, just before i load them up for the shoot.

thanks,
Dan

[danr]

the production company will not release the exact forumla that they use, its a proprietary information. but they did say they are using a carborizing with quench and temper method.

beyond that, i cannot give any thing more.

i can toss these dies agianst the concreate floor for you, and demonstrate they do not mash up.

thanks,
Dan

i just called the production company and talked with the engineering manager, they will let me video the hardness test on one of the dies for everyone if you like.


dan

[PatMarlin]

these are not screw stock.. they are 1018 that has been heat treated to 54 RC.

thanks
Dan

I know you're not using it now. I was commenting on the old posts...

[NoZombies]

Well, case hardening isn't really a secret at this point, but at least we know what they're doing.

I will say that the inside die polish looks to be okay from the samples you posted. What was the final dimension when they were ejected from the point form die?

The "transition" of the "ejector rod" is pretty clear to me in that photo for most of the bullets. I do hope that the company will try a small ejector rod again that's the same diameter as the meplat to alleviate such problems.

Overall though, I've gotta say, the progress is looking good! I'm looking forward to the finished product being available!

[Mountain Prepper]

Well, case hardening isn't really a secret at this point, but at least we know what they're doing.

I will say that the inside die polish looks to be okay from the samples you posted. What was the final dimension when they were ejected from the point form die?

The "transition" of the "ejector rod" is pretty clear to me in that photo for most of the bullets. I do hope that the company will try a small ejector rod again that's the same diameter as the meplat to alleviate such problems.

Overall though, I've gotta say, the progress is looking good! I'm looking forward to the finished product being available!

I am on the list for the full set of dies.

I am behind Dan on this project for the promotion of swaging as a hobby for the shooting sports.

I am expecting a version of a Chevy or Ford not a Lexus or a Mercedes you want the roundest and the best for benchrest call Corbin and get on the 24 month waiting list.

I am expecting dies of the same type and usefulness as the CH4D or about there and am willing to put up some cash on that.

Dan, don’t worry about the ejector rod thickness, if someone wants a perfect lead tip then the best answer is a lead tip forming punch, or a replacement punch with that shape on it in the actual bullet seating die.

The samples look as I would expect and should shoot fine out of an auto-loader.

I would expect that if the product gives a .224 on a reasonable caliper then the autoloader will eat them like candy.

With a bit of work a 6S is capable of better than factory “trash surplus bullets” accuracy. Any slight imperfections are reformed in the barrel on firing anyway (a fact that far to many chicken sacrificing to Jooboo benchrest shooters are unaware of or unwilling to admit to because they always want to blame the “boolit” and not recognize that their baby rifle has more of an impact”.

We need entry level equipment and dies for swaging! Corbin and the long wait is not reasonable and the excessive prices for craft-shop products are not reasonable.

I am willing to put down the money to test this, at Corbin prices I would not, I have Corbin, CH4D, and some “craft-shop” products and I would put Corbin at the top and the CH4D is great for pistol fodder - what else do we want...

We want new people into swaging - thats what!

Dan if you need any advice or help PM me I have been swaging from 1982 and had a type 6 to manufacture bullets for the precision shooting market, I have a bit of experience with dies and the product.

[Mountain Prepper]

I am going to have to say that look pretty weird to my eye. Especially 6 and 7. How did those come out the way that they did? How are these being ejected again from the point form?

What would you say the weight of those are? Are you going to make projectiles and try to keep it consistant?

Looks like the operation of de rim, squirt and swage are working good. Sorry for all of the questions.

6 and 7 the jacket moved into the ejector hole.

[danr]

6 and 7 the jacket moved into the ejector hole.

yea, the die was about 1/4 - 1/8th turn low.

the biggest part of what i was looking for with this test was how well it would form the ogive and how hard it would be to eject them. if the taper into the swaging area was a little off, it wouldnt have ejected or had trouble ejecting.

there's 4 different drill steps before the reamers are used, so it was important that the entire ogive formed smoothly, with no imperfections.

anything else was punch related, which is no big deal.. once we do a test run of the punches things will come together, assuming the punch sizes come out correctly.. if not, no big deal, we'll just adjust the cnc program and do another test run of them.

once we have refined the cnc programs, we'll do a production run.
my aim is to have the production company do as much of the work as possible, so that all i'm doing is fine tuning, testing, and packaging.


dan

[martin]

Mountain Prepper,

I freely admit to being one of those “chicken sacrificing to Jooboo benchrest shooters” but I don’t necessarily see anything wrong with that. I agree that for the money you should not expect to get an $800 set of dies for $200, however what you should expect is a set of dies that put out reasonable bullets of the proper size that are safe to use. You should also expect that these dies hold up to a lifetime of shooting without becoming dangerously oversized (directly related to die material and hardness).

I also agree with you that it is a good thing to get new people into swaging but this has to be a good experience for them. What this will take (in my opinion) is sharing of those with knowledge and experience with those starting out on a forum such as this. I want to see this be successful and am willing to share with anyone on this forum.

Danr indicated that this is not Rocket Science. Well, no it is not Rocket Science but, on the other hand what he is attempting to do here has to be fairly precise. Now, you have to admit others before Danr (B&A, Nemi, Corbin, Diech,CH4D) have set the bar fairly high in terms of quality expectations.

I am still a little unclear in a number of areas:

1. How does the bottom punch fit into a reloading press and does it require a shortened reloading press ram?
2. I am unclear as to the material the punches are made from and if these are heat treated to a given hardness?
3. How does extraction take place within the dies? What method is used (a mallet smashing the top punch? An extractor?). It would be nice to see a picture of his setup so that others could get a better idea of what it will take.
4. Is there going to be a set of instructions shipped with these dies telling the new people the entire process from beginning to end?
5. Is there going to be ongoing support when these new swagers have questions specifically when they run into problems like a stuck bullet?

As a parting comment, it was Colonel Towsend Whelen who said “ Only accurate rifles are interesting” If you think about this, aren’t we all interested in hitting what we are shooting at?

[danr]

Mountain Prepper,

I freely admit to being one of those “chicken sacrificing to Jooboo benchrest shooters” but I don’t necessarily see anything wrong with that. I agree that for the money you should not expect to get an $800 set of dies for $200, however what you should expect is a set of dies that put out reasonable bullets of the proper size that are safe to use. You should also expect that these dies hold up to a lifetime of shooting without becoming dangerously oversized (directly related to die material and hardness).

I also agree with you that it is a good thing to get new people into swaging but this has to be a good experience for them. What this will take (in my opinion) is sharing of those with knowledge and experience with those starting out on a forum such as this. I want to see this be successful and am willing to share with anyone on this forum.

Danr indicated that this is not Rocket Science. Well, no it is not Rocket Science but, on the other hand what he is attempting to do here has to be fairly precise. Now, you have to admit others before Danr (B&A, Nemi, Corbin, Diech,CH4D) have set the bar fairly high in terms of quality expectations.

I am still a little unclear in a number of areas:

1. How does the bottom punch fit into a reloading press and does it require a shortened reloading press ram?
2. I am unclear as to the material the punches are made from and if these are heat treated to a given hardness?
3. How does extraction take place within the dies? What method is used (a mallet smashing the top punch? An extractor?). It would be nice to see a picture of his setup so that others could get a better idea of what it will take.
4. Is there going to be a set of instructions shipped with these dies telling the new people the entire process from beginning to end?
5. Is there going to be ongoing support when these new swagers have questions specifically when they run into problems like a stuck bullet?

As a parting comment, it was Colonel Towsend Whelen who said “ Only accurate rifles are interesting” If you think about this, aren’t we all interested in hitting what we are shooting at?

let me see if i can clear some things up for you.
1. the bottom punch fits directly into a RCBS Ram, unmodified. the punches are made to fit into the ram exactly as a shell holder would.
2. the punches will be made of the same material as the dies. currently it looks like everything will be 1018 heat treated to 54 RC.
3. extraction is done by a push pin. smack it with a mallet. the swage die will be made so that there is little to no force needed to extract bullets, so we will try and eliminate bent extraction pins. if pens break, replacements can be ordered for a cheap cost of about $5 each. hard to quote prices before production is in full effect.
4. a full set of instructions, step by step will be included with the dies.. initally these instructions will be printed, but as i get time, they will be converted to VIDEO based instructions. shipped on a DVD and on youtube for those who may have missplaced their dvd's.
5. support will be provided for the life of the company or the life of the dies. stuck bullets will be supported as long as the person purchased the dies from me directly, and they where using the supplied swaging lube. we'll be shipping a quantity of swaging lube along with the die sets. more lube may be purchased from me as well.

it is my aim to produce a set of dies that will not only produce a good shootable bullet, but also a SAFE bullet.. saftey is of the upmost importance to me. however, i cannot garantee that the swager will not be able to produce a unsafe bullet. just as speer or rcbs cannot garantee that a reloader will not double charge a load. i cannot garantee that a swager will not be tempted to load a unsafe bullet.. its up to the swager to take extra percausions to maintain that the bullets will be safe to shoot in his or her own rifle. with this being said, i will warranty any defects in dies.

i will also go further to say, that accuracy is absolutely important, this is the point of doing shoot tests of the swaged bullet designs. there's no point in selling dies that produce bullets that cant hit the broad side of a barn. accuracy will greatly depend on the rifle used and the load used with them as well as the shooters abilities.

so far in the 2 years of making bullets with my prototype dies, i can say, they are just as accurate as any factory made bullet on the market.. if not more accurate due to the ability to adjust the weight and bullet design to a design that my particular rifle likes.
i dont have the facilities to do a GOOD benchrest testing of the bullets, like speer or other factory bullet producers, but i can do my best with what i have, and i make the claim that if they work good for me, then there is no reason they wont work just as good for anyone else, using the same load data and bullet weight as i have in testing.

if you have questions feel free to ask, nothing it out of bounds here, as we have seen in past posts in this thread.. so have at it.. i'll be happy to address any concerns anyone may have.

thanks,
Dan Rickard
Owner of Kaine Dies.

[Utah Shooter]

6 and 7 the jacket moved into the ejector hole.

Ok so the ejection hole is obviously as big as those 2 show. I am planning on doing Hollow Points simply because in my experience they tend to be a bit more accurate. Yes with swaged projectiles.

Are you planning on making a die of some sort to close those down even further?

[danr]

Ok so the ejection hole is obviously as big as those 2 show. I am planning on doing Hollow Points simply because in my experience they tend to be a bit more accurate. Yes with swaged projectiles.

Are you planning on making a die of some sort to close those down even further?

its actualy easier to cut them down with a point uniform tool. i'm planning on including a method to make the points more uniform, but it will be a cutting method for now.

once things get going, i'll prolly make up a point uniform swage die to close them down further as you say.

i was able to make a couple of hp's.. but it all depends on how small of a hp you want.. hp's tend to be more accurate because of the air pocket, it creates a air bubble space where air pressure allows the air currents to flow over them easily, and uniform. so size of the hp point isant too much of a problem.. but shouldn't be so large that it causes the projectile to explode mid flight, but also shouldn't be so small that they dont do anything.


dan