Overworking Case Necks

[.30/30 Guy]

Most reloading sizing dies are designed for jacketed boolits except for the RCBS Cowboy dies. I do not have any experience with the Cowboy dies.

Last spring I started out with a new batch of brass for my .30/30 Hi-wall. After about 20 firings I started to get about 10% loss each loading due to split necks. I annealed the brass and the loss has been reduced to about 2%. Annealing is another story that I will not cover here.

I got wondering if there are other things to consider such as overworking the case necks. I pulled the expander units out of my sizing dies to see what the necks were actually being sized to.

0.333” = fired case neck diameter
0.320” = neck diameter using RCBS neck sizing die and no expander
0.320” = neck diameter using RCBS full length sizing die and no expander
0.318” = neck diameter using Forster Benchrest full length sizing die and no expander
0.3245” = neck diameter using above dies with expander installed
0.3285” = neck diameter after using RCBS 0.311” expander die
0.3115” = sized diameter for Eagan MX3-AR boolit
0.331 = neck diameter after seating Eagan boolit

I do not need to have the neck sized below 0.328” for my loading procedures. I considered Lee Collet dies and neck bushing dies. My understanding is that the Lee Collet die is not very friendly to adjust. I have Star sizing dies from 0.309 thru 0.3115” and RCBS expander dies from 0.309 thru 0.311”. It makes sense to me to get a neck bushing sizing die with a series of bushings. No die adjustment, just change the bushing.

Neck bushing dies are available from Redding, RCBS, Wilson, and CH4D. I do not have an arbor press so the Wilson was not considered. RCBS does not list a .30/30 die and Redding has a 50% premium for it.

I decided to order the CH4d neck die. The CH4d die is a universal die and can be used over multiple calibers. I ordered on a Friday and got my things the following Friday. Shipping was very reasonable. The workmanship on the bushing die and the bushings is very good. There is a very noticeable difference between the effort required using the neck bushing die and the neck sizing die. The neck bushing die is a little finger finger type operation.

I believe that by using a neck bushing die that the brass life will be extended and the intervals between annealing can be increased.

[Char-Gar]

Let us know how it works out for you. I pull the factory expander/ball from dies and use a Lyman M die to open them up to correct size.

[Larry Gibson]

30/30guy

I also use bushing dies to minimally size the necks on numerous cartridges. I use Redding dies and an apropriate bushing to give .002 - .003" neck tension or to just be touched by the M-die expander. The '06 dies shortened a bit is used for the 25-06, 6.5-'06/6.5-280, .270 Win, 280 Rem, 303B, 7.7 Jap, 7.65 Argentine and 30-06. I use a shorted .308W bushing die for numerous cartridges from the .250 Savage up through the .308W including the 30-30. I also use a shortened .284 Win die for the 7.62x54R which gives me the correct neck size for bullets of .310 - .316 in .001" increments. I use the Redding 7.62x39 bushing dies for optimum necking for use in my bolt action. The .22 Hornet bushing die is also the best for NSing the cases without stretch or making them crooked.

Yes bushing dies can initially be spendy but the bushings are reasonable and the versatility is amasing.

Larry Gibson

[Doc Highwall]

I agree 100% with Larry on the bushing dies and that is all I use 99% of the time. The bushing dies are made for both jacketed and cast bullets because you can change the bushings in .001" increments. The cowboy dies are a step in the right direction but are only made in a few calibers. I am making floating expander's with sliding chambers for my 30-30 Win and 308Win in .0005" to complement the bushings.

[ktw]

The old Lyman/Ideal 310 dies tend to be very cast friendly with respect to looser necksize dies and appropriate sized M type expanders.

I have been using the Lee Collet neck sizers as a cheap solution to reducing the working of the necks on 30-30 and other bottleneck rifle cartridges. These can be adjusted by buying a larger mandrel from Lee and sanding it down to your desired size. I haven't found them to be all that much of a problem to adjust correctly.

-ktw

[Ickisrulz]

Most reloading sizing dies are designed for jacketed boolits except for the RCBS Cowboy dies. I do not have any experience with the Cowboy dies.

Last spring I started out with a new batch of brass for my .30/30 Hi-wall. After about 20 firings I started to get about 10% loss each loading due to split necks. I annealed the brass and the loss has been reduced to about 2%. Annealing is another story that I will not cover here.

I got wondering if there are other things to consider such as overworking the case necks. I pulled the expander units out of my sizing dies to see what the necks were actually being sized to.

0.333” = fired case neck diameter
0.320” = neck diameter using RCBS neck sizing die and no expander
0.320” = neck diameter using RCBS full length sizing die and no expander
0.318” = neck diameter using Forster Benchrest full length sizing die and no expander
0.3245” = neck diameter using above dies with expander installed
0.3285” = neck diameter after using RCBS 0.311” expander die
0.3115” = sized diameter for Eagan MX3-AR boolit
0.331 = neck diameter after seating Eagan boolit

I do not need to have the neck sized below 0.328” for my loading procedures. I considered Lee Collet dies and neck bushing dies. My understanding is that the Lee Collet die is not very friendly to adjust. I have Star sizing dies from 0.309 thru 0.3115” and RCBS expander dies from 0.309 thru 0.311”. It makes sense to me to get a neck bushing sizing die with a series of bushings. No die adjustment, just change the bushing.

Neck bushing dies are available from Redding, RCBS, Wilson, and CH4D. I do not have an arbor press so the Wilson was not considered. RCBS does not list a .30/30 die and Redding has a 50% premium for it.

I decided to order the CH4d neck die. The CH4d die is a universal die and can be used over multiple calibers. I ordered on a Friday and got my things the following Friday. Shipping was very reasonable. The workmanship on the bushing die and the bushings is very good. There is a very noticeable difference between the effort required using the neck bushing die and the neck sizing die. The neck bushing die is a little finger finger type operation.

I believe that by using a neck bushing die that the brass life will be extended and the intervals between annealing can be increased.

I like my CH4d neck sizer die...but what's up with the cheap aluminum lock ring and box that doesn't fit quite right?

[Von Gruff]

I have the Wilson dies with multiple bushes for 20VT and 7x57 but my 404 Jeffery is too big to have the bushes so I had my CH-4D FLS die opened up in the neck so that it only sized down to give a 2 thou grip in j-words and use an m die expander for cast. Brass working is minimal and I anneal on 4 load cycles for j-words and 7 load cycles for cast. Works well.


Von Gruff.

[1hole]

"My understanding is that the Lee Collet die is not very friendly to adjust."

Most of the Lee owners love 'em, some hate 'em. Seems to depend on the user's mechanical skills; if he has trouble with a manual can opener the Lee collet may be too much. Thing is, the Lee collet has a moving part and that means the user has to both understand how it works AND develop a feel for what he's doing. Some folks just can't seem to get it together but those who do, love the things. It's helpful to understand that a half turn on a die (of any kind) is NOT a 'small' adjustment.'

[GBCAPT]

I use the lee collet dies for a couple of calibers with excellent results but have a couple of suggestions for new users.

The mandrel that is supplied with the die usually is sized for full neck tension on "j-word" bullets, and may not be what you need for cast bullets, which usually are sized a couple of thousandths larger! Lee will work with you to acquire the correct one for a very nominal fee.

There is a post somewhere on this site where someone was using a collet die with a 7.62 x 39 (lee supplies madrel for .310 bullet, but most of us shoot .312-.314 "Boolits" in this caliber) but had to replace the sizing mandrel with a .303 Brit mandrel ( made for .313 bullets) to prevent shaving and bullet deformation when seating.

ALSO PAY ATTENTION TO ANNEALING! If case necks are allowed to work harden, they will spring back some after sizing - resulting in inconsistent neck tension. I choose to anneal all new brass, and after every third firing thereafter rather than wait until accuracy suffers or neck start spilitting.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Anneal cases frequently. Set the Collet die for much less than a death grip on a J-bullet. First disassemble it, and lightly lube allcontacting parts of the die with Imperial SD Lube. They work fine. BvT

[Iowa Fox]

What I like about the bushing dies most is getting no case stretch pulling the expander button back thru the case neck. Plus you can size to the diameter you want.

[nanuk]

I have the Wilson dies with multiple bushes for 20VT and 7x57 but my 404 Jeffery is too big to have the bushes so I had my CH-4D FLS die opened up in the neck so that it only sized down to give a 2 thou grip in j-words and use an m die expander for cast. Brass working is minimal and I anneal on 4 load cycles for j-words and 7 load cycles for cast. Works well.


Von Gruff.

Hey VG: just wondering how you handle brass with differing thickness' on the neck?