Buffalo Hunters casting bullets? Fact or fiction.

[Dale53]

I can add little to what has been said. However, to re-enforce some of the other comments: it is no great trick to cast bullets using a wood fire. As many here have said, wood fired heat (I haven't used "buffalo chips") is more than adequate. My local club has an indoor range. I have often helped clean the range of lead. We smelted it in a very large iron pot suspended over a fifty gallon barrel full of burning wood. This worked as well as my modern propane fired turkey cooker (it was larger, tho' by far). We only clean the range when is about to collapse the floor and we are talking hundreds of pounds of lead.

I grew up on a farm where a wood fired range was still in use in the kitchen. I have cast bullets on the range using a Lyman iron pot and fire ring to suspend the pot over the fire. It is pretty easy to regulate the fire in an old range - we often used corn cobs for fuel and the number of cobs were easily translated to the numbers on your modern range heat control knob...

Probably the most "businesslike" individual on the original Buffalo range was Frank Mayer. Here is an excerpt from his book, Buffalo Harvest...

http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/reso...ve/buffalo.htm

Frank kept meticulous records, records that the yet to be invented IRS would have been proud of. I don't know if he mentions it in this account, but I have his book and he ordered bullets, swaged and paper patched, from Sharps. As I remember, he used 16-1 lead-tin for his bullets (he left a very detailed account of all things involved in his ten years chasing Buffalo). What is more, he was a real "rifle crank" and continued to be interested in serious rifles until old age. He lived until the 1950's, I believe. I would have liked to have known him.

Dale53

[Doughty]

Harry,

Looks like your well on the way to getting your rifle built. I'm envious. Is this the rifle you are planning on shooting in BPCR?

[Harry Eales]

Harry,

Looks like your well on the way to getting your rifle built. I'm envious. Is this the rifle you are planning on shooting in BPCR?

Hello Vic,

Yes it is, I dreamt about owning a Borchardt for at least forty years, but they're very rare in Europe, and I've never seen one single specimen. So the only way to get one, or a replica, was to build it myself. I am aware they are being produced in the USA, but import duty, etc would push the price up considerably over list.

I'll be buying a barrel, possibly a 32-34" Lilja, Krieger or Badger, but all the rest of the work will by me, including stocking, colour case hardening and blueing. I'm just taking my time, but I hope to have it finished and belching smoke and lead by next summer.

Building a rifle isn't for the faint hearted, but I did spend some years working as an engineer in a tool room, so I have the metalworking experience. The receiver is 0.300" thicker than normal size, I'll reduce it to finished size once all the milling work is finished. It is made from a 'Mild Steel' (low carbon) and is easily marked or 'dinged' until hardened.

I'll probably chamber it for 45/90 which appears to be a decent BP round for 1,000 yard work. The recoil should be quite mild compared to some of the rifles I've owned in the past.

Harry

[Doughty]

Harry,

You might want to check the BPCR rules. I've heard that the Borchardts aren't allowed because the hammer isn't exposed.

[floodgate]

chunkum:

That's a nice old Ideal "No. 6 Special" tool with the "single-adjustable" chamber (djustable for crimp only, not for bullet seating); boolit looks like the #457124 405-grainer (and mould should be so marked; the die should have a small stamping "89 - 124"). With the set-screw for the sprueplate pivot screw and the mould alignment peg, it is post 1901; if Marlin-marked, it dates from 1910-1915; if not, pre-1910. You are VERY lucky to have the original drop-in decapper/crimp flarer with an un-bent or -broken decap pin. These go in the $150 - 250 range currently to collectors (drool!).

floodgate

[chunkum]

floodgate,
Thanks for the information on the old mould/tool combo. I'll print that and put it in the box with the mould.
Best Regards,
chunkum

[montana_charlie]

Probably the most "businesslike" individual on the original Buffalo range was Frank Mayer. Here is an excerpt from his book, Buffalo Harvest...

http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/reso...ve/buffalo.htm

Dale,
I have never had much more that a passing interest in the elimination of the buffalo. I knew it happened...came to wish that it hadn't...and was never very anxious to find out how it took place.

It is the capabilities of the rifles used that intrigues me.

However, I read that excerpt you posted a link for. Thanks for doing that. It pretty well answers any lingering questions I may have had.

As for the original topic of the thread...about whether bullet casting over a campfire is possible...everyone from buffalo runners back to soldiers in Napoleonic armies knew that it is.
And, I've done it myself.
CM

[Harry Eales]

Harry,

You might want to check the BPCR rules. I've heard that the Borchardts aren't allowed because the hammer isn't exposed.

Hot Damn Vic,

I thought that they would have settled that rule by now. It's ridiculous not allowing Borchardts, it also cuts out all the hammerless Martini's as well. Both are well within the age range and both were produced in far greater numbers than some of the other guns they do let shoot.

Funny, they let modern hammer guns in though.

What are they worried about? Maybe they're afraid Borchardts will sweep the board. Heh, heh.

Stlll, I believe Borchards are allowed in Long Range Competitions. That'll do me.

Harry

[waksupi]

Harry, can you give us a run down on your method for color case hardening?

As far as the elimination of the buffalo, it wasn't all the Sharps rifle that was the cause. The Indians were great hide gatherers, and were the mainstay hide in such places as Ft. Union. This trade started many years before the commercial hunters hit the plains. Transport was by way of the Missouri River, and the tributaries. Read" Thirty Years a Fur Trader on the Upper Missouri", for some insight into the trade. The Whiskey Trail, and Ft. Whoop-up in Canada also caused the demise of many buffalo, to trade for firewater. (Read the book, "Firewater". Gives some interesting insight into the early days of the democratic party, and the birth of the RCMP)
And, they were nearly as wasteful as the more modern hide hunters were.
One researcher made claims, that the main thing that killed off the buffalo, was tick fever, brought north by Texas cattle. Very possible, as the northern herd wouldn't have any resistance to a "foriegn" disease.
Mair Sandoz book, "The Buffalo Hunters", also makes an interesting read, as does Walter Coopers, " A Most Desperate Situation", a highly romanisized account of his days during the big hunt period. Cooper eventually settled in Bozeman, Montana, and was a supplier of rifles and goods to hunters. His rifles are very collectable, as are the Fruend, Gemmer, and Slaughterbotham(SP) variations.

[Harry Eales]

Hello Waksupi,
Thanks for your post.

Re colour case hardening. My efforts in the past were fairly primative in that I used a Blacksmiths Forge as the heating source.

As a hardening medium I used a mixture of 50% Oak charcoal, 30% charred bone meal and 20% charred leather.

The charcoal I got from a local charcoal burner (they still make it in my local woods) The bone meal was from a horticultural supplies firm and the leather was scraps from several Cobblers Shops (Shoe repairers).

The charcoal was crushed into very small size lumps. The bone meal and leather were charred in an old cast iron pan until they blackened (A slow and tedious process) and then all three components were well mixed together.

As a crucible I used a piece of 2" dia pipe screwed at both ends and two pipe caps.
One cap was screwed into place and the pipe partially loaded with the mixture. The parts after degreasing and then washing clean in boiling water were allowed to dry, and these were placed between layers of the mixture until the pipe was full.

The end cap was then screwed on and the pipe put into the forge. The fuel used was 'Coke'. (a fuel made from coal) Temperature was judged by eyeing the red colour the pipe took on. (Not a recommended method, but I had no other way of measuring the temperature) I never took it over a 'dull cherry colour' and controlled the temperature by using an air blower or fan which pumped air into the forge base.

The quench tank was an old wooden barrel filled with water with an iron wire basket hung inside near the bottom. After about two - three hours in the forge the pipe was removed, the end cap removed over the quench tank and everything but the pipe was dropped into the tank.

Sometimes I got colours, sometimes they didn't appear, although the items were hardened. It's a very hit or miss method. I tried bubbling oxygen into the water once, for about an hour before quenching but the bubbler stopped working before the quench, as the oxygen cylinder ran out.

Today I have access, through the kindness of a local heat treatment company of using one of their electronically controlled furnaces, which will make the heating side of the work much simpler. I've yet to try and colour case harden anything as large as a Borchardt receiver.

Getting the cap of the pipe when it is red hot is a problem and can be difficult. I found it easier to machine away most of the internal thread on the cap leaving only 2-3 turns of thread. You do need Blacksmiths tools to handle the pipe, the longer they are the better. I do need a better of design of crucible than the pipe, and I'm working on that idea.

My method was very crude, almost 'Backwoods style'. Getting the colours is not easy, and I don't know of a method that is reliable 100% of the time. If colour does not appear, the hardened parts can be brushed with a 3 thou wire wheel and this produces the French Grey colour which is not displeasing, or the part can be blued.

It's been 10 or more years since I last tried to 'colour case harden' and I will be better prepared this time. The company that is letting me hire the use of their furnace had never heard of colour case hardening and I think they're only letting me do it on their premises to see how it is done. lol. I've used them before for stress relieving metal before machining it, and they've always done a good job at reasonable rates.

I had considered buying a ceramic 'potters' furnace, but then I found out the cost. It's better and much cheaper to hire the use of proper equipment.

I don't know of any commercial company in the U/K that does colour case work, so it a case (pardon the pun) of having to try and do it myself.

Harry

[Wayne Smith]

About goods available to the Westerners - there's an article in, I think, the current Smithsonian about the discovery and excavation of a sunken riverboat along an old Mississippi channel, just post Civil War. The variety and volume of goods being transported is apparently opening the eyes of some historians of the period.

[Junior1942]

>The variety and volume of goods being transported is apparently opening the eyes of some historians of the period.

I helped in an archaeological dig on a circa 1810 plantation site along the Tensas River in north Louisiana. Those 1810 people ate a lot of fresh oysters, to my amazement. Those oysters came iced-down via steamboat up the Mississippi River from New Orleans, then up various other rivers to the plantation, which was remote even in 1810.

[7br]

About goods available to the Westerners - there's an article in, I think, the current Smithsonian about the discovery and excavation of a sunken riverboat along an old Mississippi channel, just post Civil War. The variety and volume of goods being transported is apparently opening the eyes of some historians of the period.

Wayne,
You might check out this link. This is the steamship arabia museum located in Kansas City. Sunk in 1856 and excavated in the 1990's. One of these days, we are planning a trip to the Great Wolf Lodge in KC, an afternoon in the Arabia museum, and then road trip up to Hannibal MO to visit the Mark Twain stuff there. We will watch a Tom Sawyer or Huck Finn dvd on the way up.

http://www.1856.com/

[Txredraider]

Finally a topic I can add something to the discussion about in this forum: DUNG!

I enjoyed reading all the replies to this point, but thought that I might be able to help our distinguished friend from across the pond understand just how the buffalo chips might be able to perform in a manner similar to wood as a fuel source.

Buffalo are essentially ruminants, fairly similar to cattle in their digestive mechanisms. Something to remember about ruminants and pseudo-ruminants, such as deer, elk, and moose, is that the feed they consume isn’t to feed themselves; instead it is to feed the microbial population in their fermentation chamber (usually the rumen). The bacteria and fungi in that live symbiotically inside these animals are primarily fiber digesters that produce energy rich compounds which the animals can utilize directly in their own metabolic activities. In return, the host animal provides warmth, food, and moisture for the microbes. It is a very elegant system that is still not fully understood even after several hundred years of study.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the primary sugar polymer that is contained in grasses, such as those found on the tall grass prairies, is cellulose. Unfortunately, there isn’t an animal that I’m aware of that can directly digest cellulose. Even termites utilize a symbiotic relationship with bacteria like that outlined above to derive energy from wood. Speaking of wood, guess what the primary structural carbohydrate in wood is: cellulose. What is the difference between wood and grass, on a cellulose basis? Another compound called lignin that ties the bundles of cellulose together, making them less flexible and also less digestible to animals. That is why we can’t feed wood chips to cattle, for more than a few days anyway! By the way, the real way that ethanol might actually be a viable fuel source for us here in the U.S. on any kind of large scale is through the fermentation of highly lignified material, such as wood waste or biomass. In my opinion the only real economic difference we’ll see from corn-based ethanol schemes is higher corn prices, which leads to higher feed prices. It is pretty easy to see where higher corn prices lead in the food chain from there.

Another quick Clint Claven-style factoid: the main difference between the starches we can directly digest (potatoes, corn, etc) and cellulose (wood, paper, grass) is the conformation of the bonds between the glucose molecules. (Who knew that biochemistry would actually come in handy in the shooting sports?)

Now dung is, by definition, the material that was not digested by either the microbes or the animal that have passed through the digestive tract. Mostly, dung is whatever it was before it was consumed. In the case of the buffalo (and don’t give me any of that “bison” crap) that means grass and water. If the lignified cellulose is difficult to digest and the chip is allowed to dry in the semi-arid environment of the plains, what is left in the chip? Basically a less dense version of wood that is aromatic in a whole different way than cedar! The energy given off per pound of material burned is not going to approach that of an oak or charcoal fire, but with enough chips that energy can be harnessed to produce enough heat to melt lead.

As I look out my office window this morning at the 30 mph North wind and the snow it is blowing around, I wouldn’t want to be out there trying to do anything in that weather. Our ancestors were cut from a much tougher cloth!

Sorry about the dissertation there, gentlemen, but I can get a little carried away with feces sometimes! Seriously, I’m glad to be able to finally add something to a discussion here and hope it shows some of my appreciation for this forum and its members.

Tx

[felix]

Well, TxRedRaider, I for one really enjoyed your post. Rose growers typically search high and wide for elephant poop for the reasons you indirectly mentioned. It would have the best retained heat value by default. As far as gun stuff goes, you need to mention Nobel and DuPont who really cared about the poop, animal fabricated or otherwise rendered. The type of cellulose is what makes the european powders seemingly cleaner burning, and easier to combine individual lots into much larger ones as one lot. ... felix

[Doughty]

This is all starting to sound like a lot of BS.

[sundog]

Junior, interesting. Anyone know how ice was made in 1810? sundog

[woody1]

Finally a topic I can add something to the discussion about in this forum: DUNG!
The energy given off per pound of material burned is not going to approach that of an oak or charcoal fire, but with enough chips that energy can be harnessed to produce enough heat to melt lead.

Tx

Buffalo chips vs. wood - Actually, on a BTU per pound basis I think you'll find the energy content to be more similar than one would think. Regards, Woody

[felix]

Yeah, Sundog! Do you think they "steamed" it down from the Artic, using wood chips, dung, or whatever, for insulation? ... felix

[Junior1942]

Junior, interesting. Anyone know how ice was made in 1810? sundog

Cut from frozen northern lakes in the winter and shipped south packed in sawdust.