"Clean" burning powders

[Land Owner]

As a hand loader, and sensitive to the crud and corruption that is deposited on and in my guns through high volume over various powders, I sought to consider "cleaner" burning powders (and hopefully one or two single powders) for all the following calibers: 380ACP; 38 Spc; 357 Mag; 45 ACP; and 45 Colt with the Colt being sensitive to leading (I have got to slug that bore and its cylinders).

I have migrated from Unique, which I am discovering, here, is considered by most (Sticky at the top) to be a mighty fine mid-range powder for many/most mid-range weight boolits, to Hodgdon Clays and IMR 700X.

At the time I was experiencing a lot of unburned Unique in my chambers and barrels under jacketed bullets prior to purchasing a good bit of these two "shotgun" powders for use in my handguns. Now I am not so sure that I did such a good thing.

I am "off the chart" for cast boolits, extrapolating charge ranges from jacketed and Cowboy loads. I am poised to reload, am at the edge, but have not taken that plunge to put manufacturer's recommendations (there are not any) aside.

I was hoping to "mine" this site for data. I may be going about it all wrong. I am 10 pages deep and have not located much 700X and Hodgdon Clays data, which may be instructive in itself.

Where do we go when we're effectively "off the page" and the Mfg's have not published for the moulds, even the Lyman 4th Ed. is not instructive for these powders and the boolit weights I have cast. Dang there are a lot of variables...

[excess650]

Clays and 700x are similar in burning rate to Bullseye. Solo 1000 is another clean burner about the same burn rate.

Universal Clays and SR-4756 both burn cleanly and are closer in burn rate to Unique than the aforementioned powders.

I shot a couple 12# kegs of 700x through a couple 45 autos after deciding Bullseye and WW231 were dirtier than I cared for.

Your powders seem OK to me with the exception of 357, and it will be fine there for light to midrange type loads.

Hogdon't burn rate chart will give you relative positions of 144 powders, and is available on the 'net.

[Land Owner]

Good of you to say. I am poised to use either powder on 150 gr. x 0.358" dia. WC's from a Lyman 358-91 mould without any specific support from Mfg's.

Is an SST Ruger SP101 357 Mag "as stout as" (within caliber) its older Brother the 45 Colt BlackHawk? Mfg's always provide cautionary higher-pressure loads for the BlackHawk. I have seen nothing similar for the SP101 or other Ruger handguns.

Here's the set up:
I want to shoot 700X or Clays from my 357 Mag H&R Handi-rifle, a chamber I believe to be "stouter" in a relative way to the SP101, but not exclude firing common rounds through the SP.

I want to shoot the noted Lyman WC's, in 38 Spc cases, positioning bullet seating such that COL is less than the maximum 357 Mag and more than maximum 38 Spc. (pretty easy to do).

I think a 700X min. load is 3.0 gr. and a max. is 4.2 gr., which are derived from the Hornady 7th Ed. for 357 Mag. x 140 gr. Cowboy cast WC boolits and Clays from Hodgdon's on-line manual for Cowboy 357 Mag. x 158 gr. lead SWC's of 3.2 gr. min. and 4.6 gr. max.

Am I steering into shallow waters?

[Rocky Raab]

Burn rate charts are fine for very general comparison, but never try to extrapolate load data from one.

"Dirty" powders are generally operating below their optimum pressure range. Either upping the charge a bit or switching to a faster powder usually solves the issue of unburnt kernels and soot. It is not a good idea to try to clean up dirty powders by switching to a hotter primer. That can lead to unpredictable results, not all of them good.

Some powders are cleaner because of newer chemistry. Solo 1000, Clays, Accurate No.2, Ramshot Zip, and TiteGroup are some that fit in that description.

Edit to add: and another powder is rapidly becoming my "clean" favorite: American Select.

[thegreatdane]

One vote for Titegroup.

[swheeler]

LO; just a quick look in IMR Handloaders guide shows lead bullet loads for every cartridge you list using 700X, except 380 acp.

[Char-Gar]

I don't get it. Seems like in the past few years, shooters have become powder fouling adverse. I have been at this for a very long time and I clean my guns and wash my hands. I use whatever powder does the best job and pay no mind to whether is is dirty, clean or cleaner.

[Land Owner]

Rocky Raab provides a realistic answer to the "clean" vs. "dirty" issue that makes sense. I have not been on this site over the years in which you been posting. Please don't crucify me for asking.

[Char-Gar]

Land Owner.. Nobody is going to crucify you for asking, just get ready for some answer you may not want. That is the way things work around here.

In your best interest, I would caution you against "mining this site for data". There are many, many folks who will accommodate you with that request. But, you have no way to evaluate that data. Some folks know what they are doing and others talk a good game, but are as dumb as a box of rocks. I have seen data posted on this and other sites that is down right dangerous.

If, you are indeed "off the page", I would suggest you get back on the page, until you can make your way into the unknown without having to place your trust in folks who you do not know. That could be a bad mistake.

[Rocky Raab]

LO, if you wish to, you may PM me at any time. I answer any and all questions - and especially from somebody in Mims. That guy still have his own private "Rocket Garden" there on the east side of Hwy 1?

[thegreatdane]

Well said chargar

[Land Owner]

That guy still have his own private "Rocket Garden" there on the east side of Hwy 1?

The place I am thinking is just south of NASA Causeway (SR 405)...and north of the Orlando Utility Commission power plant. Not any longer. It has been about 5 years or a little more. He cleaned it up, packed up his restored Sherman Tank too to places unknown. Lotta cleanup changes when the land values shot up in the early 1990's. Now the Boom is Bust and soon, with the Space Center layoffs a reality, the possibility of returning to the Ghost Town days of post-Apollo and pre-Shuttle are looming large.

chargar, I read a lot of posts here, more than 1,500 today. I do not know if what I have proposed has been tried by others or if I am steering into shallow water. So I asked. Many of my questions remain unanswered, even if incorrectly, which I would hope would get some push back for the more experienced casters.

There are a lot of folks here that work "off the page" due to no known reference. The "standard" reply appears to be to load to a bullet that is close (above in wt.) and back off a percentage from published data. I note that you are a straight shooter, advocate keeping all of your fingers, toes, arms, and face intact, and find pause with those that drift. Good advice to stay within the published data to take advantage of the Mfg's margins of safety (MS). What is the purpose anyway of experimenting with one's personal safety? I am not ready to change the way God made me.

By extrapolation from cast bullets above and below in the data I have on hand, I appear to be within the MS, but have not seen the data specifically for the bullet that I wish to load. swheeler says to locate the IMR Handloaders guide and I will do that. I do not believe I am truly "off the page", just unverified.

[bhn22]

I don't get it. Seems like in the past few years, shooters have become powder fouling adverse. I have been at this for a very long time and I clean my guns and wash my hands. I use whatever powder does the best job and pay no mind to whether is is dirty, clean or cleaner.

I agree. Unique is one of my favorites. I clean my guns regularly, and at least wipe them down after every session. I've found Titegroup to be dirtier than Unique with cast bullets, but still use both. One other issue you'll always have is that bullet lube smokes too, and can be quite dirty.

[Catshooter]

Land,

Welcome to the site.

I too prefer clean vs. dirty, even though I'm an old fart not unlike Chargr.

You might give Universal Clays a shot. I have found that balistically it is very similar to Unique, it works very well in a wide variaty of cartridges. I've used it from 9mm to .45-70. Unlike Unique, it is very clean.

I have found it to be a very forgiving powder, to me it seems to have a gentle pressure curve that has to go quite a ways before it gets violent. I once didn't see a cloth that was sitting just underneath the charge pan of my powder scale and thus accidently loaded some 9mm with 7.8 grains of it. The 115 JHP left the barrel of my Glock 19 at over 1700 fps. The reading on the chronograph confused me the first time, I though perhaps it was a mistake so I fired another round. Same reading. When I picked up the two empty cases neither had primers in their pockets, they'd both fell out! I believed the chrono then! Way overloaded.

Good luck.


Cat

[Land Owner]

Thanks Catshooter. One could infer certain "irregularities" from a handle like that. Not to worry. I once purchased bumper stickers that read "I love Cats...Dead Cats" and "Cats...God's Little Speed Bumps". But maybe I am off base...hehe.

For comparison, what would have been the "normal" for your 9mm?

[35remington]

I've had a few zinged at me by Chargar for a few things; and yeah, we still do disagree about topics.

Posts like this get a lot of response.

But the point's well taken; try everything, not just the clean burning stuff, because it really doesn't matter that much compared to a load that is more accurate or has something else to recommend it.

Ballistic consistency is a quality not limited to the "clean burners"as I can list several old standards that will beat them.

A lot of the "clean burners" haven't made the short list of accurate powders yet.

I presume the Clays and 700X dispense well from your measure? The lighter charge weights appropriate for 380 and 38 Special are not dispensed accurately from some measures according to the claims of many. The Lee Pro Auto Disks are not reliable below somewhere around 3.5 grains weight, which would eliminate Clays from many loads, for sure. Above that weight, as in significantly above, the Lee disks do really well.

Many criticize 700X especially because the flakes are said to be curled slightly. This buggers up repeatable metering, many say.

As far as loading nonstandard cast bullets and the lack of data, best advice for pistol cartridges is to compare bullet seating depth first and foremost when looking at loads. Also bearing surface and length. This is unfortunately not easy to determine from data sometimes. And start low with fast powders like 700X and Clays. Clays is a bare tick faster than Red Dot but for some reason Hodgdon seems unenthusiastic about recommending anything above sorta midrange loads with it in many cartridges. 700X is a bit more versatile.

For specialized, accurate loads in the rifles/carbines a different or slower powder may well provide better accuracy than either of these choices can make possible. In fact, I'd put pretty heavy coin on that. Those two powders might be cleaner burning but they are a limiting choice in many ways.

In the clean burning horserace, the VV powder shooters have declared themselves the winners and Clays and 700X are has-beens by comparison. Probably to justify paying 10 bucks more per pound for them.

They seem to be quite happy.

[Land Owner]

A lot of the "clean burners" haven't made the short list of accurate powders yet.

Now that is a profound statement and I didn't make it clear that I am on the quest for an accurate powder.

I also didn't know that

"Dirty" powders are generally operating below their optimum pressure range. Either upping the charge a bit or switching to a faster powder usually solves the issue of unburnt kernels and soot.

So, I have several opportunities with the powders and components on hand.

I have the RCBS powder measures with both large and small charging hoppers. The small hopper dispense very well for Ball, Flake, and granular powders in charges as small as 2.0 grains.

[GH1]

I load for .380 and .357 using AA# 2 and 9, respectively. I find them to be very clean burning. Accurate has data for the .45 ACP using #2, but not for the Colt. They do have loads listed for all of your guns using AA#5, but you're not going to get full power out of your .357 with it. For that you'll need #9.
What I like about #9, along with it's clean burning, is for the .357 is it doesn't require a magnum primer. I have a very small area in which to reload so if I can save space by stocking fewer components I'm going to do it.
GH1

[excess650]

Good of you to say. I am poised to use either powder on 150 gr. x 0.358" dia. WC's from a Lyman 358-91 mould without any specific support from Mfg's.

Is an SST Ruger SP101 357 Mag "as stout as" (within caliber) its older Brother the 45 Colt BlackHawk? Mfg's always provide cautionary higher-pressure loads for the BlackHawk. I have seen nothing similar for the SP101 or other Ruger handguns.

***In that its chambered 357mag is testament itself. Its a strong, albeit smallish, revolver. As long as you're staying within 357mag limits, it should be fine. 357mag pressures are higher than the "extra pressure" loads generally listed for the 45 Colt Blackhawks***

Here's the set up:
I want to shoot 700X or Clays from my 357 Mag H&R Handi-rifle, a chamber I believe to be "stouter" in a relative way to the SP101, but not exclude firing common rounds through the SP.

I want to shoot the noted Lyman WC's, in 38 Spc cases, positioning bullet seating such that COL is less than the maximum 357 Mag and more than maximum 38 Spc. (pretty easy to do).

I think a 700X min. load is 3.0 gr. and a max. is 4.2 gr., which are derived from the Hornady 7th Ed. for 357 Mag. x 140 gr. Cowboy cast WC boolits and Clays from Hodgdon's on-line manual for Cowboy 357 Mag. x 158 gr. lead SWC's of 3.2 gr. min. and 4.6 gr. max.

Am I steering into shallow waters?

***no, your 140gr 700x data would be safe in a 38spl with 358495 141gr WC seated conventionally. The Clays data is close to Lyman's 38spl +P 35311 with 4.5gr Bullseye at 18,200cup.

Lyman 47th lists the 141gr 358495 wc in 357 cases over 4.8-6.8 Bullseye. The latter load is 40K cup.

Your alterative seating of the WC effectively increases powder capcity, so powder charge can be increased slightly to achieve the same pressure as with the same projectile seated more deeply. Speer used that same approach with WCs in the 38 S&W case.

If you're going to load beyond +P pressures in 38spl cases, you should mark them somehow so as to not inadvertently fire them from a weaker 38spl.

IMO, "shallow waters" would be trying to load 357 data in 38spl cases even with the same OAL as 357mag. The 38spl cases might be a weak link.***

[Land Owner]

I had not cross-referenced that about 357 Mag pressure being higher than the 45 Colt Ruger BlackHawk loadings. I will look for that. Thanks!

I started loading this morning within the 38 Spc range of 3.9 gr. of IMR 700X, made 17 rounds, a nice prime number, increased powder to 4.3 grains, made 17, and then 4.7 grains and made another 17.

Maybe this afternoon the 357 Mag Handi-rifle will get heated up.