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Thread: The proper use of fillers

  1. #101
    Boolit Mold
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    Okay, a question for all you folks that know what they are doing. I have a .45 colt, 1873SAA by Pietta., Decided to start loading for it, cast bullets(what else, lol) and need a question or two answered. The book(Lyman #49) calls for around 6 grains(about halfway between minimum and maximum) with RedDot and TiteGroup. My question is, as it only fills the case about a quarter full, which leaves a fair bit of gap between powder and bullet. I have used card wads with black powder, but can't find much in the way of info on using them with smokeless. I understand that compressed loads with smokeless can be a hazard to ones health; that being said, is it bad practice to use a card wad placed on top of the powder ( not compressing it) to keep it near the hot end of the case? Or is it better to just point it at the stars between shot, like on the old cap and ball wheel guns; although with those it was to keep the spent cap from getting in the way, not to put the powder at the hot end of the cartridge.....thanks in advance.

    Reo
    It is up to us to maintain that which so many have fought and died to gain

  2. #102
    Boolit Buddy SgtDog0311's Avatar
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    Reo, that was one formula used for ringing chambers by one gentleman as he attempted to prove he could ring chambers at will. My understanding is that a wad over powder with airspace between the wad and base of the bullet is bad mojo.
    Best Regards,
    John

  3. #103
    Moderator Emeritus / Trusted loob groove dealer

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    Quote Originally Posted by 49Reo View Post
    Okay, a question for all you folks that know what they are doing. I have a .45 colt, 1873SAA by Pietta., Decided to start loading for it, cast bullets(what else, lol) and need a question or two answered. The book(Lyman #49) calls for around 6 grains(about halfway between minimum and maximum) with RedDot and TiteGroup. My question is, as it only fills the case about a quarter full, which leaves a fair bit of gap between powder and bullet. I have used card wads with black powder, but can't find much in the way of info on using them with smokeless. I understand that compressed loads with smokeless can be a hazard to ones health; that being said, is it bad practice to use a card wad placed on top of the powder ( not compressing it) to keep it near the hot end of the case? Or is it better to just point it at the stars between shot, like on the old cap and ball wheel guns; although with those it was to keep the spent cap from getting in the way, not to put the powder at the hot end of the cartridge.....thanks in advance.

    Reo

    No need for fillers in that case. The primer will get the job done with the powder loose.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by waksupi View Post
    No need for fillers in that case. The primer will get the job done with the powder loose.
    +1.

    Larry Gibson

  5. #105
    Boolit Mold
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    Thank you, gentlemen, my thoughts too were along those lines; bad ju-ju and a health hazard for both gun and trigger-man. Thanks for clarifying the hazards. Now to report to the loading bench and load some up...

    Reo
    It is up to us to maintain that which so many have fought and died to gain

  6. #106
    Boolit Mold
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    Brand new to CastBoolits and to reloading. This is a great thread and I have read every single post in it on this rainy Sunday afternoon...

    I am loading 45-70 for my new (May 2014) Guide Gun and for my newly resurrected 1873 Springfield (1879 manufacture). The very old and very new. I am just now finishing up my first bottle of IMR 3031. I am using 50 gr 3031 under 405 gr LazerCast in the GG. I tried about 35 gr 3031 and same boolit in the Springfield. I loaded 5 without filler, But, as you can imagine, there was a pretty good space in the case still so, I loaded 5 with corncob polishing material to fill the case to where the boolit would compress the whole bunch a little then, I loaded 5 with Pyrodex RS to the 50 gr mark on my Black Powder powder measure. That filled the case to the same level that 50 gr 3031 did and would not have left any space with the boolit set so, no filler with the Pyrodex.

    I really think I got the best accuracy with the Pyrodex... However, that leaves a mess in the cases, a mess in the barrel. I am thinking to go back to smokeless for the old girl.

    Anyway, being a glutton for recoil, I bought a Vanguard .338 Win Mag. I loaded up some 200 gr boolits with IMR 7828 and that filled the cases up to darn near full - well up into the neck. Then, I ran out of 7828 so, consulted the Speer manual and loaded the last couple primed cases with 3031. Oops, a lot of air space. I had no idea the different powders would be that much different in density.

    So, there is the background. Questions:
    1- This corncob stuff - other than being hygroscopic - any other objections to using it?
    2- Is there a chart showing the relative densities of powders? Is slower burning powder (7828 vs 3031) "fluffier" (less dense)?
    3- Would those 2 cases I have with powder rattling around in them create an unsafe condition when shot in my new to me Vanguard? Edit: I see Larry Gibson and Waksupi say no worries...
    Last edited by ClydeP; 03-14-2016 at 11:04 AM. Reason: Found answer to 1 question...

  7. #107
    Boolit Mold
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    Use of Filler Advise

    I am loading a 265 grain gas check bullet in a 375 Ruger bottleneck case. The case has a volume of 99 grains and I am using 39 Grains of Reloder 7 to propel the bullet at 1878 ft/sec according to the Lyman Handbook. (max suggested load, and max suggested accuracy) This pressure is still very still low for the cartridge design

    The bullet seats well below the bottleneck, exposing the edges of the gas check and one or two lube grooves.

    Based on the notion that
    1) powder can get stuck to the bullet due to the lube(s) groove being exposed and separated from the main body of powder, and
    2) gas checking or erosion can occur due to the bullet exposure below the bottleneck...

    Is it advisable to use a Dacron filler? Or is it a "try-and-see" if measured benefits can be found? Not sure if this situation is a clear-cut case of filler use being advisable.
    Last edited by Jimeast; 11-29-2018 at 04:06 PM.

  8. #108
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    Use the dacron filler. I use one in my 375 H&Hs with cast. I'm using 4895 and push 2200 fps.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  9. #109
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    I know just enough about cast boolits in bottle neck cartridges to make me dangerous so I think I should ask before I move into stuffing a fluffy mass in the cartridge . I have went to Cast Boolit college with my studying over the last few years , but have yet to use a filler . Along with some great advice from members here I am about to start working up loads with powers that I use for jacketed bullets - that are much slower burning , but with safely reduced loads and a filler I believe will get me to the velocity I'm looking for with cast boolits . I have a pretty good understanding of the pitfalls of reducing charges of slow burning powder below the 60 to 80 percent level in cartridges . So to my understanding these loads could be safely loaded with a filler is this correct for cast boolits ? Powders I want to use are all IMR 4831 , 4350 , 4064 in cartridges from 30-30 , 308 , 3006 as well as 7x57 . I will start at the minimum book load and work down in charge weight until I find reasonable grouping . I believe this is the right approach , but in my lifetime I have been wrong once or twice - usually daily . I am hopeful this will allow me to achieve more velocity with my cast boolits then I am able to with the fast burning powders I have been playing with under cast boolits such as red dot , unique , and herco . It seems I hit a wall with velocity quickly with these powders that keep me in 1000-1400 fps range , but I want to get in the 1800- 2200 fps . All advice will be appreciated

  10. #110
    Boolit Buddy
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    Hi All, It's quite timely that this thread has been resurrected as it's something i have been thinking about the last couple of days.

    I've been working on loads for my 44-40 and after testing quite a few powders i get the most consistent results with trail boss when you look at extreme spread and standard deviation. My Trail boss loads have a case fill above 90%.
    Unique is the next best but there is a huge jump between them. I'd like to stick with a load of 8gn Unique behind the Accurate 43-220C. This gives me 1180fps in my 24" barrel and is very accurate.
    The case fill with this load is only 50%.
    Even with carefully measured charges and great care taken when seating and crimping so that everything is consistent i will have a string of shots where i get several within 10fps of each other and then the next couple will be wildly different .
    I'm wondering if the position of the powder charge in the case would cause these fluctuations?
    Would adding a tuft of dacron to take up the remaining 50% of case fill help to improve consistency?

  11. #111
    Boolit Grand Master


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    toallmy

    With the powders you mention (IMR 4831 , 4350 , 4064) in those cases (30-30 , 308 , 3006 as well as 7x57) you will probably hit your desired velocity range (1800- 2200 fps) with a greater load density than 50%. As mentioned in my initial post if the load density is less than 80% then use a Dacron filler. Also with those powders, even with a Dacron filler, it is best to use a heavy for caliber cast bullet.

    "I have been playing with under cast boolits such as red dot , unique , and herco . It seems I hit a wall with velocity quickly with these powders that keep me in 1000-1400 fps range "

    Assuming by "wall" you mean loss of accuracy above that velocity range(?). If so what you hit was the RPM threshold for the components used.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  12. #112
    Boolit Grand Master


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    CamoWhamo

    "I'm wondering if the position of the powder charge in the case would cause these fluctuations?"

    It's possible but there are other things at play with cast bullet in longer barrels that cause larger SD/ES spreads.

    "Would adding a tuft of dacron to take up the remaining 50% of case fill help to improve consistency?"

    Might be worth a try for use in your long barreled rifle. Suggest dropping back 1 gr and work back up if the Dacron filler is used.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  13. #113
    Boolit Master
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    I was hopping you would stop by your older thread Larry Gibsos , and your shared knowledge is very much appreciated .

  14. #114
    Boolit Bub
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    Is Polyester stuffing the same thing as Dacron,? Dacron is just a brand Name I am thinking by Du Pont Company etc

  15. #115
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    Question,? What size Gas Check wil I need to order to fit my245 Gr Cast Bullets from Mold 429421 As I never had ordered them before & who sells them,? Please Thanks

  16. #116
    Boolit Buddy
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    Lockdown loading
    to while away time while locked in, I formed 7x57 from Federal 30-06-another story by itself.Formed 10 in 4 days-Got to stretch the 50 cases awhile...
    Re-found this thread-Thanks Larry!
    HiTek Coated RCBS 0.285" 168 gr; dropping at 174gr
    1 gr Dacron filler (from an ironing board cover) to just below the case mouth.Handled 9G's without any powder spillage
    20gr of 4759
    COAL 3.050"
    QL tells me it's a 41.3% load, for 1848FPS/1340 FPE

    Now to wait a few months to see how they go.
    Last edited by eljefeoz; 04-20-2020 at 08:49 AM.
    "...Some days its rocket science, and some days it just zinc..."

  17. #117
    Boolit Master veeman's Avatar
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    Laundry lint! It's free!

  18. #118
    Boolit Grand Master


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    The dryer, at least my dryer, doesn't produce enough lint (It's used several times a week) and it is not consistent in texture. If I depended on dryer lint I wouldn't be able to shoot any where near the amount of cast bullets I do.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  19. #119
    Boolit Master veeman's Avatar
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    I use towel lint. It's the most consistent, has the most of it, and is relatively free of cat hair. (we have 3, and it gets everywhere) I don't know, maybe stop by a laundromat and ask for it?

  20. #120
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    Dacron batting from any store selling sewing supplies, or Kapok from the evilbay, are pretty available, though.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check