Hardness Matters

[btroj]

Read the darn book. That gives you a very good starting point.
if I could tell noobs to do one thing it is this- learn first hand. Try things. Test things. Casting and shooting cast is best learn at the pot, load bench, and range. You need to shoot ALOT. Cast ALOT. Test ALOT. Think about what happened and what was different. This need not be a hard core scientific study but just a rational cause and effect thought. Why dis one load lead and another didn't? What happens when you push the velocity envelope? Or pressure? Or hardness?

Read for the basics but learn at the range. You need to DO. This is an active learning process. Much of what I know I didn't learn on the web or from a book, I learned from the school of hard knocks. I leaded barrels, and learned how to clean them up. I cast bullets too hard and too soft. I shot a deer with a hard HP and almost lost it. Is is the kind of lesson you never forget. Failure is a great teacher, I learn more from what doesn't work than from what does.

Never think their is only one right answer. Find what works for you. If you are satisfied with your results then you have success. Period.

[waksupi]

Read the darn book. That gives you a very good starting point.
if I could tell noobs to do one thing it is this- learn first hand. Try things. Test things. Casting and shooting cast is best learn at the pot, load bench, and range. You need to shoot ALOT. Cast ALOT. Test ALOT. Think about what happened and what was different. This need not be a hard core scientific study but just a rational cause and effect thought. Why dis one load lead and another didn't? What happens when you push the velocity envelope? Or pressure? Or hardness?

Read for the basics but learn at the range. You need to DO. This is an active learning process. Much of what I know I didn't learn on the web or from a book, I learned from the school of hard knocks. I leaded barrels, and learned how to clean them up. I cast bullets too hard and too soft. I shot a deer with a hard HP and almost lost it. Is is the kind of lesson you never forget. Failure is a great teacher, I learn more from what doesn't work than from what does.

Never think their is only one right answer. Find what works for you. If you are satisfied with your results then you have success. Period.

Pretty good answer. Remember, cast boolits are for advanced reloaders, and you need a very good grasp on assembling ammunition for best success.

[Bret4207]

This may have been answered before, but I didn't see it. I acquired a bunch of lead ingots. I have no idea what their hardness is. Is there a way I can find the approximate hardness before I melt and cast some bullets with them? I need to know if I need to add anything.

Thanks

Rick

A little late finding this Rick, but here's my advice- FORGET HARDNESS! At least for now, just forget it. Go ahead and cast some up, see what it does, how it fills out, what it takes to get good boolits and then see how they shoot. Start off low and slow and work up. I'd also take all my ingots and melt them up together into one big batch so you have the same alloy as a base source. Then, AFTER you try all this, then if you find you need a little more tin or maybe a little more antimony or maybe that it's waaay too hard to start with for your uses and you need to cut it with pure lead...then you have a base to start from. You have "ingots", you don't have a specific alloy. That alloy may all have a Bhn or 14 and be made up of 27 different combinations of lead/tin/antimony/copper/aluminum/zinc/godknowswhatelse. So, considering you can alter your end Bhn number with different cooling techniques, quenching, enrichment alloys, etc...does the Bhn now really matter? What if it's 15? Is that a magic number? What if it's 10? Is that good or bad? If it's 30 what does that tell you? Do you know if it's heat treated? Air Cooled? Is it a babbit of some sort?

Forget Bhn, cast some up and shoot.

[dwtim]

I don't understand why this has to be so complicated. I always read the pressure tables as a suggestion of the minimum pressure needed for base obturation. I go with softer rather than harder. The actual hardness isn't that spot-on. My alloy for 45 ACP, for example, is typically 8-10 BHN. I make my own lube with plenty of Alox and I don't have problems with it. I make sure that the bullets are oversize, but not so much that they don't chamber.

I don't make connections between alloy and accuracy other than the observation that a badly fouling load is an inaccurate one. Without the fouling, I assume that the lion's share of inaccuracy is caused by me. I put in enough tin for good fill out. It's possible to buy alloys with certified values for consistency that don't contain excessive amounts of expensive hardening metals. Expensive alloys don't necessarily pay off at the range. I have shot wadcutters from my .38 that were cast from recovered .22 rimfire bullets, and these were accurate beyond my ability.

What does bother me is when people have a bad experience due to overly hard commercially-cast bullets that are too small, and their minds can never be changed otherwise. I'd like to prevent that if possible. I can't recall how many times people have repeated that it's not possible to push a lead bullet beyond 1,000 fps (while I'm standing at the firing line sending .44 slugs downrange at 1,300 fps), or that lead fouling is always worse than copper. My best loads never accumulate lead. The gun will fail from powder residue in the moving parts before lead accumulates in the bore. It took some experimentation to get to this point, and I believe anyone can achieve the same results.

[Maximumbob54]

I don’t know what to think of reading a hundred plus comments to a thread. I know that the bullet must fit the bore, the velocity can’t be so much that the lead shears off into the rifling, and that pressure and burn from the powder can burn the base. I also know that I’m guilty of assuming too much when it comes to both loading and casting. I keep thinking that after so many decades of smokeless powder that we would nail down a set of common powders that are best for certain cartridges with certain bullet weights , but this just doesn’t seem to be the case. I read the ABC’s of reloading, the Lee manual, and then the 4th ed. Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. They were informative but so full of knowledge overkill that I almost didn’t try my hand at casting. It made it out to be more than I really wanted to do. But all I want is some decent revolver ammo and I would like some hundred yard rifle ammo to maybe one day cast something that will shoot straight enough from a .308 Rem 700 at three hundred yards. So maybe my desires are simple enough to not stress over the mass of variables. My revolver lead is mostly just a pinch of tin added and they work just fine with the LLA even though I’m not big on the goo, the stink, or the drying time waiting. Now I have my first .30-30 ammo to test and I’m hedging on it. But it will either work or it won’t. If it doesn’t then back to the drawing board I guess. If nothing else, this forum can tell me what I’m doing wrong if it can’t tell me how to do it right.

And just to make sure everyone gets what I’m saying… I used to work at a Home Depot. If a guy came up to me and asked for a standard size anything, I had to do my best not to laugh… So really, I get this is much the same. Guilty of all kinds of assumptions when you are just ignorant of the reality can really hold you down.

[pls1911]

The number of comments to the stream is indicative of the number of variables we can, have, and will encounter, some of which may seem contradictory for different calibers, bore conditions, etc.
While after 40 years or hunting and casting, my own universal practice is to cast soft, heat treat hard, load, and shoot for everything between .38 special to 45-70, applied to rabbits pigs, deer, and elk, steel, and a bundle of tin cans and rocks, it does NOT mean I have nearly all the answers. It only means I've benefitted from the knowledge shared on this site, and my own numerous number of failures..... and in the process found a combination that works well and is most economical for my use.
I can only hope to pass to others what has been shared with me, and likely learn something new in the process.
Thanks to all.
Cheers.

[Char-Gar]

pls1911.. I really don't think the number of comments is indicative of the number of variables. I tend to think it is indicative of the number of human opinions about something that is relatively simple.

[justingrosche]

Chargar, your disclaimer sums it up nicely.

[tom threepersons]

I bought some lead in 2 boxes the ingots are marked 10 to 1 lead to tin. What would be the use of this alloy? I cast for a 45-110 and use paper patch bullets. I also cast for muzzle loaders. I could add lead to make this into 20-1. I could not find this 10-1 listed in any loads. I am not a real informed caster so bear with me. THX

[Chill Wills]

TOM,
The standard answer is always "it depends".
Most of the old Sharps paper patch factory bullet boxes list alloy 1-16 and some 1-14.
Using as is or cutting it with Pb to make something less rich "depends".
What is your bullet design like. A long target nose? You need harder alloy for accuracy like 1-16 or 1-18 or1-20 can be tested. Avoid nose slump with those long nose designs.
Using a blunt design for hunting go soft like 1-30.
I would mix it tho, as 1-10 might not be the best use of all that tin.

Is your rifle a Big Timber sharps? Have fun with that rifle!

Chill Wills

[looseprojectile]

More than a half a century ago I cast and shot thousands of rounds out of the
.357 and .44 magnum mostly Ruger single action guns.
I have continued to shoot about the same loads up to this day.

I have had several people scoff at my statement that the faster I shoot them the more accurate they are. At that time lead boolits had a really bad reputation because of the crappy pure lead swaged boolits found in factory loads.

After reading these more than a hundred replies to a mans question about a .454 Cassull I now know why that happens to me and my loads.

Back in the day I was using really hard and tough alloy such as copper babbit and such. Out of neccesity I had created an alloy that was not susceptable to deforming at high pressure and velocity.
Most of those boolits were too hard to mark with my thumbnail.
I used the hammer and anvil trick also and if the boolit broke when hit my alloy was too brittle. Then I made them tougher with the addition of tin or the afore mentioned babbit. All this came about when I was in pursuit of ammo for my guns that didn't leave the bore of my guns lead plated. 1955 vintage commercial swaged pure lead loads in .357 would lead a bore horribly with just six shots.
The companies that sold that lousy ammo had to know it couldn't work.
I will bet that they didn't know how to make ammo as good as mine.
I also have loaded a lot of light loads that did not need to be so hard and tough.

Thank you all for enlightening me.

In 1955 powder was fifty cents a pound,[H 240], primers were fifty cents a hundred and less if you bought in bulk and wheel weights, linotype and bearing metal was free for hauling it off.
My son in law just last Saturday bought a box of twenty 35 Whelen cartridges for forty dollars. I just loaded forty rounds for him that cost me eight bucks.



Life is good

[tmattox]

I just shot some 230 grain bullets I coasted from a Lee .45 ACP mold. I had some barrel leading after 50 rounds. I usedLee liquid Alox. Should I switch to a stick Alox and use a sizer/lube die on mu lumber sizer? My bullets tested out to 16.3 on my hardness tester.

[Griz44mag]

Tmattox,
There are just way too many things that we do not know about what you are doing to make any kind of determination to be of help to you. Have you slugged or sized your gun, what material are you loading, what powder, how much of that powder? If you will furnish a lot more information, you will get some very good advice from the folks here, there's a lot of experience and knowledge here.

[jonp]

An interesting thread, and even more interesting opinions and comments.

Over the years, I have come to the conclusion that regarding fit, bigger is better, and smaller is leading. And for me that seems to work. So in that regard agree with Bret on that point.

As to hardness, it seems to me that in shooting anything we cast, it is going to be softer than jacketed material (please someone correct me if I am wrong on that point). Don't mind shooting plinking loads that run in the 1000-1200 fps range with lower end BH numbers (12-15), but when vols go up, I want harder and slightly oversized for bore blts. Most everything that I shoot in rifles at vols between 1600-2300 fps, are at or above Lino hardness. That is true for the 22's, thru 375's.

And of course there are issues of punching paper, or punching game, and what constitutes accuracy at what range, etc.etc.etc. Any how, still an interesting thread.
1Shirt!

Some boolits I bought from Hunters Supply for my .357 are BHN 10 which they claim works fine up to 1400fps. I'm a little confused here. Are you saying that they should not be driven that fast as they will not seal the bore or will cause leading and that Hunters Supply is being a little generous with the fps that they are claiming?

[catboat]

,458 (original poster),

Have you been able to reproduce those accuracy results?

Haven't read all the responses. I'm glad you had great results, but sometimes results like that are
mistakes gone good." Hope you found the correct hardness for your pistol.

[pls1911]

Jonp... If the bullets are gas checked and you don't push 'em too hard, you should do fine.

[trixter]

After reading from post #1 and trying to fit it all together, my head is in danger of an explosion, however I did learn something: Smelt it, cast it, size (.001 over) and lube it, load it and shoot it.
After that SMILE, cause it went bang and put a hole in the paper then SMILE again, cause you're having fun.
And, finally "If it ain't fun, DON'T do it!" Maybe try fishing. LOLOLO.

[Garyshome]

I'm too old to learn all this stuff!!!!!!!!!!!

[Nickle]

An old, yet very good thread.

I tend to agree with Larry. There's a lot of science involved.

Do avoid using terms that are relative, such as "hard". Brinell number may not be the whole answer, but it isn't relative.

Now, malleability has everything to do with the subject, hand in hand with hardness.

A bullet has to be soft enough to obturate, yet neither soft or hard enough to lead. Where that plays out, depends on the caliber, twist, velocity and bullet fit. And design plays a major factor there.

I, for one, refuse to believe boolit casting is "black magic". Heck, I'm even starting to swage jacketed and cast bullets, and many folks believe that is black magic. It isn't.

There are skills involved, that have to be learned. You learn them by a combination of research and experience. Neither alone will truly get you there.

And, I agree with the fact you do really need that Lyman Cast Bullet reloading manual in your library. Not just the loads section either.

[303Guy]

I did an alloy toughness to pressure test to find an alloy and that obturates up to the ogive without nose slump. I did a thread on it, here is the pic of the two boolits tested, both of the same alloy, sized the same an knurled the same and paper patched the same. Only the powder charge was different, that being a fast shotgun powder for low muzzle velocity.