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Thread: Hardness Matters

  1. #81
    Boolit Master
    btroj's Avatar
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    Sorry, but I am using art in a very precise way. Advising to Webster , art, noun, skill acquired by Experience, study, or observation. As in the art of making friends. In the case casting is an art.

    Yes, nook's do pick and choose what they want to listen to. That is a problem, as is the unwillingness of some to get away from a specific FACT they have decided is the key to everything. In my opinion this ultimately is due to a lack of personal experience. They try to replace first hand knowledge with "research" online or thru reading. This kind of learning does have a place but there is no replacing first hand knowledge gained at the range.

    Chargar, your example is a good one. You had a problem with a very specific set of components. Ulu dis some asking, got the info to solve the problem, and FOLLoWED THRU. You dis not rely on others to solve a problem for you, you simply gained enough knowledge to know where to look for the answers. Ultimately the answer came thru testing and this allowed you to gain experience. That is the way to learn. In the future should you have a similar trouble I bet I know one of the first things you will look at!

    Brad
    Last edited by btroj; 03-12-2011 at 11:46 PM. Reason: Typos

  2. #82
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Charlies.. My first experience will REAL leading came when I lived in Houston back in the early 60's. There was a foundry there where I could buy fresh Linotype at a very good price. Well, I cast up some good 38 wadcutters, sized them .357 and loaded them over the famous 2.7 Bullseye and fired them in a good Smith K-38.

    The cylinders throats and barrel was lead plated. How could that be? Harder, just had to be better..right? Scrubbing the lead out of that pistol taught me a very good lesson. Harder is not always better and I needed to understand just what the heck was going on. I went to a much softer alloy and the leading went away. Softer alloys lead less than harder alloys? Boy that gave me something to ponder.

    Learning by mistake is the hard way to do it, but it does work if a fellow doesn't give up.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  3. #83
    Boolit Master
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    I have leaded a revolver but good with .356 hard commercial cast bullets in my GP100.
    I still have 50 or so loaded. Need to just go shoot em up. By 50 rounds they start hitting the target sideways.

    This is another example of why focusing on ONE thing just won't work with cast. It is a balancing act. Hard bullets that are undersized are a recipes for disaster.

    Brsd

  4. #84
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    I don't think there's any need for anyone to get upset over anything said here. Hashing stuff out only gets done when you discuss it. I think, assuming the world doesn't end, we'll eventually get our terms solidified a bit more, out theories fleshed out and our rules written down. Just takes time and effort.

  5. #85
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    Concur with Bret.

    Larry Gibson

  6. #86
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Yes.. It does help to bat this back and forth until we understand either others language. Once we are communicating on the same wave length, many issues tend to go away, or at least become clear.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  7. #87
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    So many of the terms we use here are open to interpretation.
    This is my problem with terms like hard, soft, etc. Too vague. Sadly, BHN is not much better.
    How do we create a set of terms with no wiggle room to them? We can't even agree on what obturate means or how it is used.
    I would love to see these terms defined for all to see and use but don't know it will happen. Too many of us use terms in a generic way to describe something without knowing what the term really means.
    Chargar hit it right in an earlier post where he said that words do matter. Using a term incorrectly leaves too much open for discussion. I would hope that if I am guilty of using a term incorrectly that one of you will jump me for it and correct me.

    Brad

  8. #88
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    It is great to see so many come to terms with "terms". And to agree that none of us here should SWAMP a new caster with 1000 posts. Let it be simple for him. He has a way to go and most troubles are best solved by him and experience.

  9. #89
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    Sadly, we don't intentionally make it hard on th new guys. They do it to themselves. They see a discussion on something and rather than ask if it is relevant to what they are doing they decide it may be THE thing that matters.
    I would love to tell all the Noobs the following. Buy a Lyman manual, read it a couple times. It may have some bad info in a few areas but it is a great book for a beginner. Get a one or two cav mould. Cast with it. ALOT. Then some more. Lube the bullets with a known lube, this is not the time to come up with the next wonder lube. Shoot said bullets in a rifle that is prone to good results with cast. A 30-30 or 45-70 are great starter guns for anyone. Start with low end loads. Sot the snot out of the thing. Once you have cast and shot hundreds, or even thousands, of bullets move on to other areas of casting. Learn to crawl, then walk, then run. If you decide to start with things best ledt to experienced casters, like high velocities, new lubes, etc, then you are in for a world of hurt. It will be a very steep learning curve. There is NO replacement for the school of hard knocks. You will,and should, lead a few barrels. If you aren't leading a barrel now and then you are not shooting enough! Learn to observe. Chang one thing t a time and see what happens. Experiment with things. Don't ever give up trying new ideas but only after you have the basics down.

    Brad

  10. #90
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Brad.. Myself and others have told many noobies exactly what you said. Buy the Lyman book, read it cover to cover twice and then come back if you still have questions.

    I have never had one of them say..." Thanks, I will do that very thing.". Most often they get pissed and a bunch of others chime in thinking you are mean and rude and are not willing to help a fellow with a simple question.

    I have a theory or two why this is so, but no sense taking up space with it. Let's just say folks are not interested in laying out any effort to learn. They want to be spoon fed.

    44 is dead on. A fellow solves his own problem and he has learned. He is forever independent of the opinions of others.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  11. #91
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    Ah yes, the old give a man a fish feed for the day, teach him to fish, feed him for life.

    Sadly, we do live in a give me a fish society.

    Brsd

  12. #92
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    In reference to the Lee maximum hardness versus pressure table, they are working from a completely different precept than most of the rest of us.

    Their table relates to the pressure at which a particular hardness of alloy will flow. They assume that you don't want this. As a result, if you follow their table it's Linotype wadcutter time, and heaven knows how anyone would achieve rifle velocities -- 35+ BHN! However, in real life we know that 12-18 BHN will do for most rifle applications, and Linotype is far too hard for wadcutter loads....

    However, if you compare the figures in the table to the formula at LASC for the MINIMUM pressure to permit bullet set-up, you will find that corresponds pretty closely with the Lee maximum, since bullet setup requires the lead to flow...

    Best advice: ignore the table completely.

  13. #93
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    After reading through all of this, no one really hit upon my internal defintiion of "hard lead', although Larry Gibson was close with his hammer test. I may say "hard", but I am thinking "TOUGH". Hard and tough are not the same. Tough lead may e relatively hard, but hard lead can be very fragile, even brittle depending upon alloy andn treatment and how green it is. I think the best alloys for fast rate rifling and/or high pressures are those that are those that are tough or strong without being brittle. Malleable, the ability to be deformed without breaking, is a big part of that adn maybe there is another part to it about resisting of tearing or shear stripping by the rifling. In this regard air cooled wheel weight is a good example or well aged chilled wheel weight.

    prs

  14. #94
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    prs.. When I started casting way back when, I got my lead from the local gunsmith who had a bunch of ingots under a bench. He picked them up and hit two together. If they went "thud" it was pistol alloy. If they had a "ring" to the thud, then it was rifle alloy.

    In light of the status of knowledge on this board, that sound very crude and rudimentary. But even so it worked very well and did so for generations.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  15. #95
    Boolit Master
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    I still use a similar method Chargar. I don't like to over think this stuff. I just add more hard for rifle, more soft form pistol or hunting.

  16. #96
    Boolit Master trixter's Avatar
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    This may have been answered before, but I didn't see it. I acquired a bunch of lead ingots. I have no idea what their hardness is. Is there a way I can find the approximate hardness before I melt and cast some bullets with them? I need to know if I need to add anything.

    Thanks

    Rick

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chargar View Post
    Brad.. Myself and others have told many noobies exactly what you said. Buy the Lyman book, read it cover to cover twice and then come back if you still have questions.

    I have never had one of them say..." Thanks, I will do that very thing." ...
    I am a noobie and would like more information on this Lyman book. I know (personally, but not all that well) a few people from the range who cast, and their basic attitude seems to be that I should just fire up my as yet unused pot and just "git r done" (apparently learning everything that I need to know through trial and error) . That doesn't really sit well with me, and if there a book out there that I should be reading, I plan to do just that.

    So, in advance, I will say: " Thanks, I will do that very thing." in regards to reading this book


    (BTW: I know that sometimes it's hard to gauge sarcasm over the internet on forums, so I just want to say that there is no sarcasm intended in this post, whatsoever)

    -Don
    Last edited by d0n; 06-06-2011 at 11:55 PM.

  18. #98
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    Don

    You'll want to get the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, Third Edition as it is a little more informative than the Fourth Edition. However, if you can spring for both they are worth it. The Fourth Edition give a somewhat different perspective in the front "information" section. The Third Edition is more techically oriented and a better "source" as such.

    Larry Gibson

  19. #99
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    Larry,

    Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. Third edition is in my Midway shopping cart, waiting on me to add some gun parts to the order.

    Sorry for hijacking this thread.

  20. #100
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    DOn, I was making reference to the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook in my post. Sorry, if I didn't make that clear. RCBS also has a decent book out on the subject. Glen Fryxell has a digital book entitled "From Ingot to Target". This is probably the best work up to date. There is a link on this board. It is cost free. Glen deserves the biggest "attaboy" around for making this available.

    Any of these resources will give you all the information you need and will be far more reliable to much of the stuff you get from posts on this board. There is an awful lot of uninformed opinions passed off at fact around this place.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check