30-06 Converted Arisaka - No Mum !

[swheeler]

A friend of mine looked in a book called "The Bolt Action Rifle" by
a Frank De Haas and said there were photos of this rifle.

It is supposed to be a Training Rifle designed to shoot blanks.....

People have been killed shooting real rounds in them.

I have about had it with Arisakas !

$115 for a piece of dangerous junk !

http://www.cruffler.com/trivia-September00.html Scroll to the Bottom.

http://oldrifles.com/japanese.htm About 3/4 of the way down the page.

My friend who saw this in Frank De Haas' book also saw two 7.7mm Arisaka Barrels
in a barrel in a gun shop. Didn't ask the price.

QUESTIONS:

What would a reasonable price be for a barrel ?
What would a reasonable charge be to take out this "Training" Barrel and install one of those
barrels in the barrel ?

I don't want to get screwed by some gun shop's gunsmith.
Brock's Gun Shop in Spokane, WA on Division Street.

DoctorBill

DB; that could all be true, but looks to me as if the part you are wondering about is a sleeve installed on the barrel, then dovetailed for the buckhorn rear sight. I seriously doubt someone went through that much trouble to fix up a blank firing rifle.

[swheeler]

I can see where the two(sleeve and barrel) come together in the first picture in post#5, bluing color even looks different. Don't you have another sporterized 99 to compare to?

[DoctorBill]

OMG !

swheeler - I should have seen that !

I have a previous Thread about my just acquired 7.7mm converted to 300 Savage
Arisaka from the friend who read the De Haas book.

I immediately took the barrel off and the 7.7mm's sleeve is about 1.25 inches long.
The 30-06's sleeve (all that "thing" on there) is 4.5 inches.
The faint line going around the barrel is 1.25 inches from the receiver !

The barrels are identical except for that portion where the Buckhorn sight is attached !



This rifle barrel has rifling....from what I can read, the "training Rifles" are smooth bores.

The serial number has series two and it is a serial number 70,848 of 99,000 made in that series.
Why would they pop a trainer out of that series ?

I still think I should have a Gunsmith have a look at it - just to be safe, but I think you are right !

DoctorBill

[bhn22]

One last issue. If the barrel hasn't been set back when it was rechambered to 31-06 you may have problems with case head separations. The web area of the 7.7 case is larger in diameter than the 30-06 case is. I used to have a Type 99 and tried sizing down & trimming 30-06 brass for it. The cases would often split on the first firing. You still need to do a chamber cast before firing it. If nothing else, you need to know the dimensions of the case neck are and the throat dimensions. .309 cast bullets will likely lead your barrel from the first shot, from the information you've provided so far.

[Reg]

I agree with swheeler, I think it's a sleeve . Something someone came up with to mount the rear sight on or whats left of the old rear sight sleeve that was hacked up to make a mount for the rear sight. I never saw one of the trainers that was rifled. From the slug from your barrel it is rifled but does appear to be on the rough side. Also its very doubtful that anyone would go to any expense to doll up a trainer. Even after the war when a lot of the Arisakas showed up, they knew what a trainer or last ditch was and they were looked down upon.
The bottom of your receiver is banged up a bit but it just dosn't look like a cheap casting and thats what the junkers were.
I still say, you need a qualified gunsmith to look it over. I think you are OK but you need to have someone check it out, someone you can trust. Anyone in the business who is worth a d#(%$ won't charge you anything for this quick check. If they do, it tells you a lot about them and the business they run.
A good source for a barrel is one of the Adams and Bennet ( mispelled ) barrels sold by Midway.
I just buy what comes close and fit it up from there. Last one I did was a 35 Whelen for a 98 Mauser and refitted it to a 91 Mauser in 35 Remington. Worked fine.
Fitting for your Jap is standard procedure and shouldn't take more than 2 and 1/2 to 3 hours max. You will need to blue and remount open sights if you still want to use them.
Yes, you are going to have a couple of bux involved. Any one in business must make a profit or they soon are no longer in business.

[swheeler]

OMG !

swheeler - I should have seen that !

I have a previous Thread about my just acquired 6.5mm converted to 300 Savage
Arisaka from the friend who read the De Haas book.

I immediately took the barrel off and the 6.5mm's sleeve is about 1.25 inches long.
The 7.7mm's sleeve (all that "thing" on there) is 4.5 inches.
The faint line going around the barrel is 1.25 inches from the receiver !

The barrels are identical except for that portion where the Buckhorn sight is attached !



This rifle barrel has rifling....from what I can read, the "training Rifles" are smooth bores.

The serial number has series two and it is a serial number 70,848 of 99,000 made in that series.
Why would they pop a trainer out of that series ?

I still think I should have a Gunsmith have a look at it - just to be safe, but I think you are right !

DoctorBill

I still see mausers done the same way every now and again, couple Swedes at last gunshow I attended. The tip and cap look like the old Bishop wannabe ivory, plastic. Heres what I would do, remove the stock, take a needle and heat it to red hot then burn it into the FE tip under the barrel channel, smell burning plastic? Hornady makes .312" dia. bullets for it, 125,150 and 170 IIRC. Take a "picture" of the throat/pound slug, use a boolit that fills it up, would think 314-299 or Lee 312-185 should be a good fit. Looks to me as if you got some oldtime hunters favorite deer masher there, do him proud and go kill something!

[DoctorBill]

Cerro-Safe Chamber Cast....



Ya...it's a 30-06 for sure.

Wonder if I should anneal the Brass down by the base -
gonna expand a lot !

DoctorBill

[swheeler]

Ya...it's a 30-06 for sure.

Wonder if I should anneal the Brass down by the base -
gonna expand a lot !

NO, never anneal the web area, that could be very dangerous Bill. I would instead wrap the web area of the case with scotch tape or masking tape to take up some of the .016" windage. A single wrap of masking tape, with ends butted not lapped, should leave .003" clearance per side. The tape will hold the brass centered in the chamber to fireform concentric, remove the tape after, neck size and load as normal, low pressure cast loads should give acceptable case life.

[Phat Man Mike]

I've always heard never anneal below the shoulder! it makes the brass too malleable and you don't need that!

[PAT303]

All I see is a bloke trying to hurt himself over a $100.Sorry Bill but either rebarrel that ''thing'' and do it properly or cut it up and write off the money.It's not worth it mate. Pat

[ubetcha]

DB try going to the milsurp web site.The is a lot of info on this stuff there and may find some answers too

[DoctorBill]

Pat303 down under..... I am now thoroughly convinced that this is a good
solid 7.7 Arisaka that has been converted to 30-06.



There is nothing wrong with this rifle - I did a Chamber Cast and it is a
true 30-06 conversion.

The last Jap symbol on the right side of the Serial Number is a Quality
Control acceptance symbol of the Nagoya Arsenal.
"The marking is the Department of Control (Chief Inspector) of Nagoya Arsenal"

I am not at all concerned about it being dangerous in any way - no worries!

Whoever worked on this rifle was a damned good machinist.

Bill in Eastern Washington State, USA.

[HangFireW8]

There is nothing wrong with this rifle - I did a Chamber Cast and it is a true 30-06 conversion.

While I have no problems with the workmanship, that chamber shape gives me great pause. Like all such conversions where the barrel was not set back, you've got an awful lot of clearance around the case head. This is the worst place for it, as some of the case head is always unsupported, and here, the rest is hardly so (in your case). A case rupture here is the worst case scenario for any bolt action rifle. 50K PSI will dynamically disassemble the rifle, such as blow out the magazine and contents, blow off the extractor, etc.

Ideally I would find a larger cartridge brass and swage it down to .475", and reload it with a '06 neck sizer.

As swheeler said, NEVER anneal this area of the brass.

If you feel you must go with '06 brass, get yourself some good, thick military like Lake City, and I don't mean the imported stuff that stole the name.

-HF

[DoctorBill]

Well....now YOU have me worried, HangFireW8 !

BTW - I intend to shoot CAST bullets with reduced loads anyway.
My shoulder is 68 years old (my brain is 98) and doesn't like even factory loads !

"Ideally I would find a larger cartridge brass and swage it down to .475",
and reload it with a '06 neck sizer."

Like what Brass would I use to do that ? A friend just now suggested 8mm maybe...
I have Brass and rifle specs flying around in my brain like a swatted wasp's nest right now !

Anyone reading this thread who has a 30-06 converted 7.7mm Arisaka -
tell us how yours works !

I need to hear if I should worry or not.

All of these thousands of conversions to 30-06 should have the same problem - if it exists at all !

Chime in guys !

A worried DoctorBill

PS - What is next ! ? Give me a break !

[broomhandle]

Hi Doctor Bill,

I am a retired tool & die maker, If there are three marks on the barrel it might be jaw marks every 120 degrees from the lathe work to rechamber the barrel.
It does look sleeved in some manner.

I have heard of some rifles that were drilled into the chamber to make a dummy rifle. The bad thing is some people never saw the holes!
Look at the chamber do you seen any sign of threaded inserts in the barrel! I too would replace the barrel or return it to the dealer. Sadly, it can be a danger!

Best, point6

[DoctorBill]

Broomhandle - go back to
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...2&postcount=13

You will see that someone has made a sleeve to fit over the barrel just in front
of the normal barrel sleeve. It is 7.9 cm long from the back seam to
the front where it tapers to the barrel. Blued a different color.

My machinist friend says that that was a sleeve (very well made too) that was
hydraulically crimped (he named the crimper ?) onto the barrel so that a Buckhorn Sight
could be attached to this Arisaka.

You can see the seam where the barrel Sleeve meets this added sleeve.
He says those are crimp marks running lengthwise.

Other than that extra sleeve, this Arisaka has everything that a 7.7mm
Arisaka should have including the Nagoya Inspector's mark.

Series 2 - Nagoya Arsenal. Good workmanship.

Does that assuage you ?

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Is this what you mean by Masking Tape ?

If so, I cannot get this to go - the bolt won't close on it !

Too tight ! You can see the pressure marks on the tape.

The tape is not overlapping - just butted together.
0.478 right at the base.



That is the same 30-06 Brass case in the pictures and the one
I've been miking.

I'll try scotch tape now - just to see what happens....closes !
0.473 right at the base.

Maybe this chamber is not as loose as I thought !

I sure am learning a lot by doing all this.....
Almost Midnight here - going to hit the sack now !

DoctorBill

[RKJ]

Bill & guys, I don't have any idea about the worthiness of the rifle or really have any interest in Milsurps (well, I wouldn't mind having a 98...) but I've been following your progress with this rifle and I find it very interesting. There is an awful lot of good knowledge here. I'm looking forward to more about this.

[PAT303]

Bill,Hatchers notebook has been mentioned already and if you read it Hatcher clearly states that 7.7 Arisaka's should not be fired if the barrel hasn't been set back in rechambering to '06.Scotch tape is what you should use on the case but seriously mate I would tread carefully,people on here are warning you for good reason. Pat

[Multigunner]

A friend of mine looked in a book called "The Bolt Action Rifle" by
a Frank De Haas and said there were photos of this rifle.

It is supposed to be a Training Rifle designed to shoot blanks.....

People have been killed shooting real rounds in them.

I have about had it with Arisakas !

$115 for a piece of dangerous junk !

http://www.cruffler.com/trivia-September00.html Scroll to the Bottom.

http://oldrifles.com/japanese.htm About 3/4 of the way down the page.

My friend who saw this in Frank De Haas' book also saw two 7.7mm Arisaka Barrels
in a barrel in a gun shop. Didn't ask the price.

QUESTIONS:

What would a reasonable price be for a barrel ?
What would a reasonable charge be to take out this "Training" Barrel and install one of those
barrels in the barrel ?

I don't want to get screwed by some gun shop's gunsmith.
Brock's Gun Shop in Spokane, WA on Division Street.

DoctorBill

We have a Jap training rifle in the family. It was mine but I gave it to my brother many years ago.
As far as I can tell the training rifles did not have rifled bores. Besides blanks they were used to fire aerodynamically stabilized projectiles that required no rifling.
The two piece barrel of our trainer does not look like yours. The cut off stub of a discarded barrel was threaded and spliced to a slim length of smooth bored tubing without copying the profile of a normal barrel.

Australian gunsmiths often spliced barrels to get around not having a source for proper barrels in sporting calibers threaded for surplus actions.

The barrel of your rifle may have been spliced, if so it may have a .308 bore rather than a 7.7 bore.
A British company used this method to convert 6.5 Carcano rifles to .308, and it seems these held up well.
The British also tried out spliced barrels for the No.4 rifle but these did not work out quite so well.