Mp44

[MakeMineA10mm]

CD - Great write-up.

In case you haven't looked it up already, the "SmE" on the cartridges stood for: "Spitzgeschoss mit Eisern" which means spitzer bullet with iron (core). If you put a magnet to the bullet, it would stick.

I always thought it odd that with the need for tanks and machine guns, they'd found steel and iron to be readily available enough to use them for an expendable like ammunition...

[Larry Gibson]

Mike

Yes, the many years being an SF Weapons NCO sure helped feed my addiction to this sport and often scratched my itchy trigger finger I got to study and learn about many different weapons, shoot them and instruct on them in some pretty exotic places (a few not so exotic also.).

Larry Gibson

[Russell James]

"Outstanding"!

[Combat Diver]

Oops, just saw where the surplus video was already posted.

CD

[303Guy]

MP44? I've heard it called that but thought it was actually a StG44 (SturmGewehr 44). The first assault rifle and inspiration for the AK47. Sturm means storm or assault.

OK, cleared my own question;

The StG 44 (Sturmgewehr 44, literally "storm (or assault) rifle (model of 19)44") was an assault rifle developed in Nazi Germany during World War II that was the first of its kind to see major deployment and is considered by many historians to be the first modern assault rifle.[4] It is also known under the designations MP 43 and MP 44 (Maschinenpistole 43, Maschinenpistole 44 respectively), which denote earlier development versions of the same weapon with some differences like a different butt end, muzzle nut, shape of the front sight base or with an unstepped barrel, all only visible with close inspection.

[Multigunner]

CD - Great write-up.

In case you haven't looked it up already, the "SmE" on the cartridges stood for: "Spitzgeschoss mit Eisern" which means spitzer bullet with iron (core). If you put a magnet to the bullet, it would stick.

I always thought it odd that with the need for tanks and machine guns, they'd found steel and iron to be readily available enough to use them for an expendable like ammunition...

It wasn't so much steel or iron being scarce it was high quality steel made from high quality iron ore that could become scarce and the metals used in high strength steel alloys. Iron is fairly cheap, and scrap iron or steel unsuited to high stress applications would be cheaper still.
The Germans used Tungsten core AP bullets for awhile, but switched to steel cores when they ran short of Tungsten.
The U S had tried Tungsten cores but settled on electric funace hardened steel cores for .30 AP due to expense and supply problems of Tungsten.

Iron or mild steel core bullets are much cheaper in massive quanties necessary for war than lead cores, and penetrate better.
Steel jackets clad with copper or other such metals are a great deal cheaper than copper or gilding metal jackets. Theres always plenty of iron ore to be mined. Only destruction of smelters and blast furnaces by bombings could cause a shortage of iron and steel, or a collapse of the steel industry.
Even then the junkyards of that era held billions of tons of scrap steel.

[Ed in North Texas]

MP44? I've heard it called that but thought it was actually a StG44 (SturmGewehr 44). The first assault rifle and inspiration for the AK47. Sturm means storm or assault.

OK, cleared my own question;

IIRC, the development program resulted in the MP (Maschinenpistole) because Hitler was enamored of the MP38 and 40. So he decreed that all developmental efforts would go toward sub-guns. To hide the Sturmgewehr program, they called it an MP instead of the StG. The weapons were popular with the troops on the Eastern front, and Hitler finally gave his permission to produce what then became known as the StG44.

Germany had enough problems, but Der Fuhrer created more. Having to hide small arms development because the dictator personally involves himself in the decisions is ludicrous. Hitler also screwed up the Me 262 program by insisting that it be a fighter/bomber. The effort which went into trying to make it a bomber set the entire program back (which was good luck for the B-17 and B-24 crews). Adolf Galland, then heading up operational control of the fighter groups couldn't convince Hitler to change his mind for quite some time. Galland ended the war with 103 kills, including 7 with the Me-262.

In any event, there is no doubt this was the first successful assault rifle.

Ed

[Combat Diver]

One slight change Chief. It was given the Maschinenpistole designated because after Hilter decried to stop production on the Maschinenkarbine (Mkb) designation. Series started out as the Mkb42 series, then MP43, MP44. Hitler give it the new name Sturmgewher44.


CD

[303Guy]

Thanks for that Ed in North Texas. I remember about them hiding the programme from Hitler now. That was quite early on in the war, which is why the Russians were exposed to it. Interesting stuff this WWII history!

P.S. Do you know why the ME 262 was designated ME and not BF as was the standard? It was to hide the fact by giving it a similar designation to an earlier aircraft, the BF 262.

Well, the MP44 is a piece of WWII history! A very interesting piece.

[Combat Diver]

This is something I knew but looked it up for dates.

Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG (BFW) was reconstituted as Messerschmitt AG on July 11, 1938, with Willy Messerschmitt as chairman and managing director. The renaming of BFW resulted in the company's RLM designation changing from Bf to Me for all newer designs that were accepted by the RLM after the acquisition date. Existing types, such as the Bf 109 and 110, retained their earlier designation in official documents, although sometimes the newer designations were used (in error) as well. Wikipedia



CD

[Ed in North Texas]

This is something I knew but looked it up for dates.

Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG (BFW) was reconstituted as Messerschmitt AG on July 11, 1938, with Willy Messerschmitt as chairman and managing director. The renaming of BFW resulted in the company's RLM designation changing from Bf to Me for all newer designs that were accepted by the RLM after the acquisition date. Existing types, such as the Bf 109 and 110, retained their earlier designation in official documents, although sometimes the newer designations were used (in error) as well. Wikipedia



CD

As a guy I used to work with (waist gunner on a -17, only survivor of his crew on October 24, '43 - Black Thursday) said, the plane they really hated to see show up was the FW-190. Of course he was in the camps long before the Me-262 became operational.

Ed

[303Guy]

... changing from Bf to Me for all newer designs ...

Thanks for correcting me, Ed. I got my erroneous 'information' from a documentary or I read it somewhere and I believed it! That leads me to question all information I receive before accepting it as fact.

My apologies for sidetracking the thread - WWII aircraft are of great interest to me as the weapons of that conflict. There is a connection - combat aircraft carried guns!

Back to topic, does anyone have the working details of the MP/StG 44? Also, I've never come across the ballistics for it. Does anyone have them?

[Combat Diver]

according to the ammo table on new ammo by prvi partizan:

7.92x33 (.323 dia)

124gr bullet
685 m/s velocity (about 2247 FPS)
1900j muzzle energy (about 1400 Ft/lbs)

rim dia is .473 IIRC

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=101007


Mike Venturoino just had a reloading article on the MP44 and 7.92x33 in the latest Handloader (issue 279, Aug 12). If you look at the developement of intermediate assualt cartridges almost countries all are in this area.


CD

[bigbuck]

Greetings from Munich,

I am a happy owner of a STG43, made by Haenel.

i am looking for a nice lead boolits, because fmj everyone can load and shoot with a STG43...

I have accurate molds for my 44-40 and 45-60. Can you recommend an accurate mold for my 8x33 kurz?

br

bigbuck

[Combat Diver]

Grüß Gott, Ich verbrachte 3 Jahre in Bad Tolz und 3 Jahre in Boblingen. I wish I could recommend you a mold that would cast about a 123gr bullet for your Haenel. I can't think of any that currently produce it. You may have to request a custom mold be made for you.

Tschuess,

CD

[reivertom]

This is a great write up for us folks that dream of getting to shoot apiece of history like that. I do get to shoot my Garand and m1917.....not complaining..., but they aren't near as exotic as the STG44 and they don't have the "pew,pew,pew" button... Thanks, and be careful...

[bigbuck]

Hello CD,

so you speak some German, don t you?

Well having a mould made for me may has an advantage as well - i could optimize the design of the bullet/ogive to just not meet the barrel rifling and keep the OAL mag friendly.

br

bigbuck

[Multigunner]

Perhaps this .323 cast boolit intended for the .310 Cadet rifle could be adapted.
https://www.buffaloarms.com/323-120-...x-of-50-323120

Its a Heel base design but if a 8mm gascheck could be crimped onto the base it should work.