Why I don't use Titegroup in the .500 S&W...

[500bfrman]

Seventeen grains of Titegroup, huh?

Seems like the appropriate end to a genetics experiment gone bad.

It occurs to me I could load all the holes in the cylinder with that much titegroup.

I couldn't load all the holes in the puny 44 cylinder with 17 grains of it.

[geargnasher]

I have never understood why people use such a fast powder in such large cases.

+1.

Gear

[Frank]

geargnasher:

Originally Posted by targetshootr
I have never understood why people use such a fast powder in such large cases.

+1.

Gear

It's listed in the manual. People look in manuals to get loads. The Hodgdon manual lists 17.0 grns as a medium load for Tightgroup.

500 S&W Magnum
370 CPB
Tightgroup 16.0 1326 40,600 PSI 18.5 1431 49,600 PSI

[mooman76]

I'm with 44man here. Someone wants to make a plinker out of a heavy gun or a magnum. Then on the other end you always have someone trying to push their gun beyond it's limits and make a magnum out of a nonmagnum. They should get together and swap guns.

[warf73]

My question is always the same, if you buy a .475 or one of the .500's, what the heck is anyone looking for light loads for? It is a hunting gun, not a plinker.

Just because it's a .475" or larger doesn't mean you have to shoot full snort ammo everytime you shoot.

Just my .02

[44man]

Just because it's a .475" or larger doesn't mean you have to shoot full snort ammo everytime you shoot.

Just my .02

We do because it is the best way to be comfortable with the recoil and learn to control it. When season opens, we are ready.
Then I hate to waste the huge amounts of lead so it is easier to grab the .44 with much lighter boolits for play.
Also, the loads we use are the most accurate and since we do a lot of long range shooting, light loads are wasted since they can't hit the small targets we use. Easy to blast away 20 rounds and miss while one load that is right can take out the target.
Too much to give up trying for a large pop gun!
I have tried a 400 gr boolit with 15 gr of HS-6 in the .475, it is accurate but has too much drop and the difference in recoil is not enough to write home about. Almost all of our shooting is 100 to 200 yards. When we get to the club, we shoot to 500 meters.
Anyway, the .500 S&W has a very large case so powder choice is very critical. Anyone buying such a large gun is better served using it as intended, if there is fear, it should not have been bought.
I know, I know, but you can't change me!

[Whitworth]

We do because it is the best way to be comfortable with the recoil and learn to control it. When season opens, we are ready.
Then I hate to waste the huge amounts of lead so it is easier to grab the .44 with much lighter boolits for play.
Also, the loads we use are the most accurate and since we do a lot of long range shooting, light loads are wasted since they can't hit the small targets we use. Easy to blast away 20 rounds and miss while one load that is right can take out the target.
Too much to give up trying for a large pop gun!
I have tried a 400 gr boolit with 15 gr of HS-6 in the .475, it is accurate but has too much drop and the difference in recoil is not enough to write home about. Almost all of our shooting is 100 to 200 yards. When we get to the club, we shoot to 500 meters.
Anyway, the .500 S&W has a very large case so powder choice is very critical. Anyone buying such a large gun is better served using it as intended, if there is fear, it should not have been bought.
I know, I know, but you can't change me!

I have to agree. I don't use plinking loads, I plink with my hunting loads. No better way to completely familiarize yourself with the load you will be hunting with. If all one does is punch paper, they would be better served with something smaller and less abusive -- IMHO.

[August]

Hunh? You DO realize what case we're talking about here...?

Yup, I do. And, I apologize for the slight exaggeration. Maybe five grains would be a good starting load in that size case.

The virtues of Titegroup include the fact that it is not position sensitive. I have found it to work great in cases that are large volume.

However, is is a powder meant for light to medium light loads and has no value in trying to achieve maximum velocity.

But, I'll wager you could get five bullets out the end of the barrel with 17 grains of powder, total.

[44man]

Yup, I do. And, I apologize for the slight exaggeration. Maybe five grains would be a good starting load in that size case.

The virtues of Titegroup include the fact that it is not position sensitive. I have found it to work great in cases that are large volume.

However, is is a powder meant for light to medium light loads and has no value in trying to achieve maximum velocity.

But, I'll wager you could get five bullets out the end of the barrel with 17 grains of powder, total.

Is there a load for 4759 in the S&W? It is bulky and fills the case good but might still need some Dacron.
I will not own the .500 S&W because it does nothing better then the .500 JRH or the .475 Linebaugh for that matter.
If you buy a .500 S&W and want to turn it into an 800 fps gun---what is wrong with you? That is almost as funny as a guy that want's one with a 2" barrel.
Buy a .300 Weatherby with a 26" barrel and it is still not long enough, yet some want 20". Why not use a 30-06?
I see with the revolver, it is because the right loads kick so much you need to shoot no recoil stuff. Then when you hunt, you flinch like crazy. Maybe a .38 is too much so you need to load the .357 down. Why would you own the .357?
I seen many .44 Rugers for sale after 6 shots turned the guy to a *****.
Saying the gun does not need to be shot full power all the time---WHY NOT? Did you buy a .500 to feel like a .38? Is it a macho thing where friends are told you have the most powerful revolver but you can watch boolits exit the barrel because you can't take the gun?
Sorry if I hurt feelings but if I want to shoot close I will take my .22's or light loads in the .44. My big bores are for hunting and all practice is with hunting loads. Even the .44 might only get 50 tin can loads a year, the rest are for hunting.

[Piedmont]

I would wager that the majority of .500 S&W owners don't hunt with them. Personally they don't interest me at all. But imagine the fellow who buys one, and finds out it is way too much gun for him. Lets say he has bought the cases and loading gear and is out a lot of money. He can sell it and probably not get his money out, or use it for a paper weight, or he can down load it.

I down load .45-70s for rifles. How is this any different?

[targetshootr]

It seems like the number of possible problems with fast powders rises as the case volume increases. On the other hand, Elmer Keith used fast shotgun powder to max out his 44 spl when times were tough. Even he blew up at least one gun I know about. Point being, load ammo carefully.

[nes4ever69]

when i was going to load up my 500 magnum with the lead bullets i called hodgdon and ask if titegroup could be used for it and the said no, they didnt have any safe load for it. in my lyman manual they dont list titegroup as a powder for the lyman mold i have.

titegroup works great for jacketed bullets i use in the 500. h110 i have data for and use it for my lead bullets.

for fun extreamly lights loads i use trail boss.

i did play around with titegroup for double/triple loads, NOTE: NOT TO SHOOT JUST TO SEE WHAT IS POSSIBLE AND THE ROUND WAS NEVER LOADED JUST TESTING THINGS, and at the charge i was doing for my 500 with 275 gr xtb i belive you could triple carge the case and i think it would have been a compressed load.

[Frank]

.475 Linebaugh, 400 grn, 1300 fps

.12 GA Roundball, 550 grns, 1465 fps

[Dill45]

Yikes, I load tight group under a 400gr bullet. Think I may stray away from that...

Edit: And there's a simple reason people load tightgroup in the 500...because they can. Tinkering with loads is half the fun when it comes to reloading IMO.

[Frank]

Dill45:

Think I may stray away from that...

It shouldn't be so bad. I use a recoil reducing stock. Sorry to hijack. I just couldn't resist since there is a lot of talk about meplats.

[warf73]

We do because it is the best way to be comfortable with the recoil and learn to control it. When season opens, we are ready.
Then I hate to waste the huge amounts of lead so it is easier to grab the .44 with much lighter boolits for play.
Also, the loads we use are the most accurate and since we do a lot of long range shooting, light loads are wasted since they can't hit the small targets we use. Easy to blast away 20 rounds and miss while one load that is right can take out the target.

I agree with this 100% just really didn't look at it this way, as all my handguns have several loads for them. Still working on my load for the 480 atm getting closer btw

[thegreatdane]

Page 53 of the Lee book states: "As a rule, a full case of the fastest powder that will yield maximum safe pressure gives the highest velocity. Simply stated, this means if you can find a powder that will fill the case, and pressures are near maximum safe pressure, you will get the highest possible velocity, as opposed to a powder that gives the same pressure and the charge partially fills the case."

This leads me to believe the volume of air (which is compressible) has an effect on pressure, as in the dreaded "pressure spike." Of course Richard Lee mentions velocity in this section of his book. I think we should key into the safe pressures part. It seems a more dense charge (based on volume, not weight), would burn more consistently in relation to pressure. My amateur-ish theory is that the compressible volume of air can introduce a greater margin of error in relation to pressure, which could put actual pressures over the safety barrier.

My theory is derived from the compression of air and the resulting elasticity of pressures. You can chemically control powder burn rates, but not necessarily the compression-rate of gas. This could lead to the "spike."

Thoughts? Opinions?

[44man]

I still remember the day I got my 45-70 BFR revolver. Talking to MR, I was told to hold under 30,000 psi even though the same gun with a .450 Marlin cylinder was rated much higher. Is it the brass?
I spent a long, long time going through books and all information I could find. This was not going to be easy!
I tried all the favorite loads of 2400 and Unique, etc and they just sucked. I moved to slower powders like 4198 and had pressure excursions, stuck brass and a jump from 1600 fps to 1800 fps. 3031 was accurate but dead slow with unburned powder. Varget was actually very decent even though much slower.
Using care I tried everything and then tried 4759 with Dacron filler. It fills the case more but is still more accurate with Dacron. The large case and relatively short 10" barrel for the caliber works best with 4759 and gives good velocity with max accuracy.
Then I tried a heavier boolit so I reduced the charge a little and stuck a boolit in the bore with no powder burn at all. Kind of funny such a fast powder can cause a problem! I had to increase the charge.
It was not an easy task to find what what works for a large case in a short barrel and I had a lot of worries. Safety first was always on my mind.
Buying a gun with a large case and dumping a fast powder in it to reduce recoil is insane and the picture of the gun should wake you up. I do not take this stuff lightly! The worries I had with the 45-70 is not taken lightly. I wish a slower powder then 4759 could be used but it is not to be with the short barrel. At least the powder is bulky.
Slower powders actually have less bulk and fill the case less but will not burn completely.
I wish some of you would stop dancing with danger.

[35remington]

Two rules seem to apply:

The most likely explanation is likely the cause of the problem, and;

If there's room for a double charge, a double charge will get loaded.

We have a fascination for positing the unproven and unlikely as THE cause of events that are not reproducible. This is in our national persona, so it's not surprising that "detonation theory" is the excuse of those who believe it's impossible for a human being to make a mistake with double charging a very compact ball powder. Especially the guy who made the mistake. I am not one to believe in the infallibility of a typical human being.

Very experienced handloader are not immune to mistakes, just as very experienced car drivers are still involved in accidents.

Such is our love of conspiracy theories, snipers on the grassy knoll, UFO's, and unproven detonations of fast powder.

Given how the primer throws the powder around the interior of the case, it seems unlikely that it is fine most of the time, yet somehow ignites all the powder all at once once in a great while which leads to an explosion.

How would this supposedly be accomplished? Tipping the powder against the primer by pointing the pistol up before shooting? I am not one of the "flash over" adherents, by the way, who claim that the ignition of only part of the powder charge is the cause of blowups using fast powder. Somehow the primer's blast is supposed to miss some of the powder and cause a problem. Not sure anyone's carried the argument any further than that.

One party claims partial ignition blows things up, and here we have the position that complete ignition simultaneously may blow things up.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to talk to the manufacturer of powder of this type, especially the engineers and chemists, and get their take on the problem. Hodgdon has given you their official position through their moutpiece ; can anyone here say that they have reproduced fast powder detonation experimentally?

We have individuals elsewhere on this forum that specifically claim that they know more about powder, its chemistry and its likeliness to "detonate" than those who manufacture the powder itself! Perhaps the industry is missing a bet by not hiring these individuals to solve all their problems for them.

Shortly they'll be climbing out of the woodwork. All hail to the amateur ballistician as the ultimate solution to the problem.

Beware of people who claim to know for sure what the cause is, and that "detonation" of fast powders is an event they can reproduce. If this could be reproduced at will, the 100 year old handloading mystery will be solved, and this person's proof would be worth a great deal of money. Anyone wonder why fast powder blowups have been discussed but not solved for that period of time?

We're all theorizing, including those that claim to be in the know. Don't hold your breath that the industry will wake up and hire these founts of knowledge any time soon.

[frank505]

As a teenage boy I witnessed many blow ups on 38 wadcutter guns at Bullseye matches. The NRA Dope Bag even did an article on 38 special and 2.7 grains of Bullseye, increasing the charge one tenth of a grain at a time until they hit 5.4. All loaded with a 148 grain wadcutter seated flush, the measured pressure at 5.4 was just over 40K if I remember correctly. 13 grains of HS6 blew up a fine 45 colt, in new cases. Looking very carefully we could see the powder line mark on the inside of the case that blew. It was the same as all the rest loaded with 13 grains................. I will not load any revolver case unless it is a 100% or very close to it. Trail Boss and Blackhorn 209 are my light load powders for the very few rounds I shoot that are not full power in 45,475 and 500 Linebaugh.