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View Poll Results: Do you use the Lee factory Crimp Die when loading pistol cartridges withcast bullets

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  • Yes, I use the FCD for all my handgun cartridge loadings when using cast bullets.

    574 65.90%
  • No, I never use this die as it swages down my cast bullets

    297 34.10%
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Thread: Lee Factory Crimp die for Handgun Cartridges and Cast Bullets

  1. #261
    Boolit Master
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    >I continue to use Lee FCD because aftermarket barrels have much tighter tolerances than the factory Glock.

    And yet, I'll bet, unless you sign a waiver, they have to meet SAAMI drawings, so they aren't THAT tight.
    Bullet manufacturer's have one major goal--to sell bullets. If the market believes that the solution to leading is harder alloy, they'll supply harder alloy. Despite over 100 years of work showing that type-metal is a poor solution, that isn't their problem.
    If you ever want to actually solve your problem, you'll look into a slightly larger expander (or actually use an expander and not just flare the case mouth).
    For those who always claim that THEIR gun has a "tight" chamber, why not find the cause of the problem:
    Take the barrel out of the gun. Drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in barrel (or gage) and rotate it back-and-forth a few times.
    Remove and inspect the round:
    1) Scratches in the ink on bullet--COL is too long
    2) Scratches in the ink on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp
    3) Scratches in the ink just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case
    4) Scratches in the ink on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit
    5) Scratches in the ink on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.


  2. #262
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    >I continue to use Lee FCD because aftermarket barrels have much tighter tolerances than the factory Glock.
    Just to clarify my stance on this...

    If you want to get higher accuracy by using a barrel with a tighter chamber (which is different from "tolerance" btw, but I understand what you mean), you need to carefully select your components/brass. Not molest all your ammo. If you think tighter chamber = higher accuracy just by virtue of stuffing w/e you make into it with FCD bullet masher, you are mistaken. So if you want to use mixed components you might as well use a (terribly sloppy and horribly inaccurate - *sarcasm*) FACTORY GLOCK barrel.

    For some strange reason, my Factory Glock barrels shoot better than my aftermarket barrels. And no one told my G27 that glock chambers are loose and sloppy. I have to carefully screen my brass, cuz some is too thick for the chamber, at the case mouth.

    Now, seeing as my G27 factory barrel happens to have a match chamber tighter than your average aftermarket barrel, I COULD just run all my 40 ammo through FCD and it will chamber and shoot just fine... if terrible accuracy and fouling is "just fine." This is not theory crafting. This is what happens. I don't screen brass for fun.

    It's completely simple. If chamber is tight enough to be tight fit with jacketed ammo, some of your cast reloads could end up too thick when combined with oversize lead bullet. My Glock 27 for example, if the brass is thicker than average, right where the case mouth/crimp is, the case will have to bite slightly into the bullet for the round to chamber. And when fired, there's nowhere for this crimp to open up. This swages the bullet as it is fired to the point it no longer seals the bore. So I can make the ammo fit; it will go bang; but it won't shoot for jack. I can either toss the thick brass or I can make bad ammo that goes bang and makes holes in paper out to 40 of 50 yards, max.
    Last edited by gloob; 01-06-2017 at 06:33 PM.

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by noylj View Post
    Take the barrel out of the gun. Drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in barrel (or gage) and rotate it back-and-forth a few times.
    Remove and inspect the round:
    1) Scratches in the ink on bullet--COL is too long

    Incorrect. Real problem is A. No freebore at all OR not enough freebore ahead of the chamber, -or- B. What tiny bit of freebore there is, is not of sufficient diameter to permit seating the round into the throat. C. Both A and B.

    Solution: Have the barrel "throated" with enough freebore to seat the boolits at whatever COA the shooter chooses. This usually helps feeding as well, lowers pressure, virtually eliminates leading, and makes a very noticeable difference in group sizes.

    The reason this is necessary AND practical, is that cast boolits are most often .001" or .002" larger in diameter than their factory jacketed counterparts, and gun manufacturers make production guns to function ONLY with factory ammo. You have to set up an autopistol barrel, or a revolver cylinder, specifically for the cast boolits. It is no different than buying a specific sizing die, or crimp die, it's just another "adjustment" in the mechanical process of loading and shooting ammo with boolits cast and assembled by individuals at non-factory premises. No big deal, it's just something that comes with the territory. You send the barrel and have it throated and when it comes back you assemble your ammo at whatever COA *YOU* choose, not what the "match grade" barrel or chamber dictates.
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  4. #264
    Boolit Master
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    B. What tiny bit of freebore there is, is not of sufficient diameter to permit seating the round into the throat.
    Freebore is where the lands of the rifling are reamed away to grossly match the diameter of the grooves in the rifling. So's it's most often going to be big enough in diameter to chamber a sufficiently large boolit to seal the bore. If boolit is larger than the freebore, you can usually just size the boolit smaller until it fits. When the bullet is fired and gets squished by the lands, there's where you get the bullet to seal.

    Lots of people load cast shorter to shoot in XD, cuz the leade/freebore is short. As long as they get desired results, it's not a gun problem.

    Freebore that is too large/long and/or gradually tapered has its own set of problems. Here, I am theory crafting based on experience, so bear with me. Glock has generous freebore, both in length and in diameter. And the leade is very gradual. Yes, this means lower peak pressure and zero fouling if bullets are sized correctly. But it also comes with 2 drawbacks. 1. A larger/longer leade means there's more gas blowby before the bullet seals the bore. This allows more lube to be blown out of the bullet. In my Glocks, this manifests as antimony wash towards the muzzle end of the barrel when shooting hard (commercial) bullets high in antimony. And 2. A very gradual tapered leade means that bullets don't bump up. If the bullet is slightly too small, it will not obturate at all. Obturation requires high peak force from hitting a fairly well-defined leade. The gas blowby will continue the entire trip, and the jet of gas will melt the bullet, leaving fouling, asymetrical muzzle blast, and unbalanced bullet spiral.

    So yes, I agree a tapered and smooth leade is good in general. And long enough to load how you want. But I want my freebore diameter just large enough to work with typical cast bullet size, fo sho. No bigger than necessary, please.
    Last edited by gloob; 01-06-2017 at 09:47 PM.

  5. #265
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    I have had the exact opposite results of long gradual freebore and leade ins. First off and I think we both agree on this one, the diameter of the freebore MUST be fairly close to the diameter of the boolit. Like .4025" for a .402" or even a .401" depending on how hard or soft the alloy is, .4525" for .452" etc.. I get great results with longer freebore because the freebore is smaller in diameter than the inside diameter of the fired case it just came out of, so you have the stabilizing effect of the cylinder guiding the "Piston" by close fit, and it holds it concentric to the bore and consequently the leade in to the rifling. There is less peak pressure but zero leading that I have experienced. I have not seen gas cutting in my long throats, and if customers were experiencing this I would have certainly heard about it by now.

    The last Glock 10mm barrel I throated had polygonal rifling, .3905" in diameter from land to land, but the groove was .403" or maybe .4033" I was quite surprised.. None of the KKM or LW barrels have had excessive groove diameters, and once throated the freebore is greater than the groove diameter and converges on a 1 degree angle so the boolit is constantly moving towards a smaller taper and it gets a really good seal in the bore.
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  6. #266
    Boolit Master
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    I have not seen gas cutting in my long throats
    You don't see any gas cutting. What the gas blowby does is to shoot off the lube. The lube melts way before the bullet. What this means for, say, all my stock (generous freebore!) Glock barrels in all calibers, is that with hard commercial alloy, the lube runs out before the bullet leaves the bore. And antimony wash builds up towards the muzzle, focused in the last inch of the barrel, in particular. Tumble lubing doesn't stop this. But same diameter bullet with same lube using a soft alloy doesn't exhibit this light buildup over time, which is why I am pretty sure it's antimony wash due to lack of lube.

    So IMO, gas blowby is one factor that should be given consideration. There's a compromise to be made, vs the other side of the coin that is to ensure that the bullet doesn't leave lead fragments on a sharp leade in to the rifling. If it were not for the antimony wash, I could shoot commercial cast in my Glocks, indefinitely, with no cleaning. The calibers I cast myself (with low antimony alloy), I don't need to clean my Glock bores at all; they are completely maintenance-free with cast. Like a 22LR shooting good quality lubed lead bullets.

    I like what you did for the 10mm barrel. But my gosh, those are some big bullets needed to fill that free bore. My Glock 20 shoots 401 just fine, thankfully..
    Last edited by gloob; 01-08-2017 at 06:46 PM.

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by gloob View Post
    I like what you did for the 10mm barrel. But my gosh, those are some big bullets needed to fill that free bore. My Glock 20 shoots 401 just fine, thankfully..
    Afaik, that Glock barrel was the exception, I had to order pilot bushings for it that I have never had a call for before in 40 caliber. All the 40 caliber barrels have taken .3895" or smaller pilots, this one required a .3905" pilot. I have never seen a factory 40 or 10 barrel with bigger than .401" groove either so at .403"+ yeah I told the customer he may have to play with his sizing dies to get it to come in.
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  8. #268
    Boolit Master
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    According to SAAMI, the bore for 10mm Auto is 0.390-0.394" and the groove diameter is 0.4005-0.4045 and should be 6 grooves and 1:16 twist. The throat should be 0.401-0.405".
    The cartridge should have an OD of 0.4181-0.4231" and the chamber should be 0.4243-0.4283".

  9. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by noylj View Post
    According to SAAMI, the bore for 10mm Auto is 0.390-0.394" and the groove diameter is 0.4005-0.4045 .
    That +.004" is for the body diameter, I am taking this to mean chamber itself, not the bore or the throat.

    The specs for the cartridge itself list the cartridge case as the body. They list separate tolerances for the bullet, .4005"-.003" meaning SAAMI does not consider the bullet part of the body.
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  10. #270
    Boolit Master
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    Exactly what are you talking about?
    I am not sure if you disagree with what I typed or what.
    When I typed bore, I meant the barrel's bore. See attached.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Screen Shot 2017-01-13 at 02.18.51.jpg  

  11. #271
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    The FCD is another tool in the toolbox. I don't use it for all my handgun reloading-but it's a nice option to have. Revolver loads always get crimped with it. It's a good tool. Best, Thomas.

  12. #272
    Boolit Master Oklahoma Rebel's Avatar
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    well does a heavy roll crimp on, say a 44 mag or 45 colt not swage down the boolit? I use the fcd and am just careful about the pressure I use. but I am interested in knowing about the roll crimps effect on boolit size, because other then 38 spl I don't use roll crimps for anything
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  13. #273
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    The roll crimp only effects the mouth of the case. Assuming the boolit has a crimp grove, the diameter of the boolit should not be changed at all.

  14. #274
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    I reload 5 different pistol calibers and I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die on all of them. (With cast boolits) I haven't had any problem with them. Once in a while I have to adjust the crimp plug for the cast boolits but it's not a problem since I don't reload for quantity.

  15. #275
    Boolit Master
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    I use the bulge buster on 40 S&W and 10MM brass before I decap. So the FCD does get used, just not for the final crimp. Then when I reload, I use a Lee taper crimp die in final stage on my cast. I am PC'ing my boolits. I previously used the FCD on all cartridges until I started casting.

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  16. #276
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    to me it depends on how hard I cast the bullet. If it is a BH under 12 I don't. Over 12 I. consider doing it. If it is a lever gun I do, but my lever guns are 45-70's and 400 gr. bullets. I prefer a little lighter than medium crimp on the 45-70 and a factory taper crimp after the bullet seater crimp is done. I use the FCD on .45ACP and .40 S&W autoloaders.
    Main guns I have are TC Contenders and I found that as long as the same pressure holding the bullet is consistent from round to round has been more important, so if I roll crimp or if I taper crimp consistency is what matters. My .41 mag prefers no crimp and the bullet just shy of the rifling in the TC. 45-70 prefers a taper crimp and bullet touching the rifling. .44 mag I use in both TC and Ruger Redhawk and I roll crimp, because of the revolver. I just got the .357 N.O.E. mold this spring and have not had a chance to compare or shot it much. My 7mm TCU has not seen lead yet, although I have several loads made up for it. I did not crimp at all for the 7mm.
    I started powder coating this spring and have some of those I want to try. I sized them and put gas checks on then powder coated after, so they are running .002" over the size of the bore. They are for the 45-70's and have a BH around 15 I hope to get by with a light roll and then a factory taper crimp. Unless I trim cases for the 45-70 so they are all same length, I end up crushing a few when roll crimping, so a light roll crimp and then a using the FCD has worked well for me even with hunting loads for a Marlin with 400 gr bullets.
    It is like everything else in shooting, get to know what your gun likes and then be consistent

  17. #277
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    I'm surprised at the result of the poll.
    I think the FCD is never the best solution. It might make things easier though, since it's automatic.
    This is a random example:
    But when loading for my AMT Longslide Hardballer or Colt Series 70 Gold Cup, I use the Lee FCD, which allows the boolits to chamber with no resistance. I get no leading and superb accuracy.
    Personally, I would do any of these things before using the FCD:
    1. buy the boolits in a smaller size, from the factory, for this specific gun.
    2. size them smaller myself with a 20 dollar die, for this specific gun
    3. Sort my brass, if necessary, to remove headstamps with fat necks, for this specific gun.
    If these things can't fix the problem without causing fouling, then the FCD can't either. The gun needs to have the chamber and/or free-bore reamed.

    Even if the FCD works for you, you have to use common sense. If the FCD post sizes the bullet, it also reduces neck tension. If a cartridge takes a curious amount of force to get through the FCD, you might want to inspect it, carefully. This is likely due to a fat case neck, and this round could have a dangerous set-back upon chambering due to low neck tension. Or it could foul/lead the bore.
    Last edited by gloob; 09-18-2018 at 04:26 PM.

  18. #278
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    My FCD dies do NOT size my boolits. The carbide ring barely brushes the sides of the case if it touches them at all.(perhaps I have some unusual FCD dies). I really like the crimp it produces and the ease of adjustment it provides.
    I don't have problems with leading in any of my handguns. I don't have problems with accuracy in my handguns other than I simply can't shoot well enough(that's a personal problem, not equipment).
    My cast loads shoot the same groups my jacketed loads do.
    I fail to see the problem with using an FCD. I think something may be going on about how the die is being used if you are having trouble with it.
    If my cases were having issues going through the FCD, I would have other problems, not the fault of the FCD.

  19. #279
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    1) The FCD has swaged down cast bullets. I know.
    2) The FCD is designed to solve a problem that the reloader himself/herself should address--seating the bullet crooked and getting a bulge in the case at the base of the seated bullet. The GOAL would be to NOT need the carbide ring to allow your reload to chamber and just have a crimp die.

  20. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazman View Post
    My FCD dies do NOT size my boolits. The carbide ring barely brushes the sides of the case if it touches them at all.(perhaps I have some unusual FCD dies). I really like the crimp it produces and the ease of adjustment it provides.
    I don't have problems with leading in any of my handguns. I don't have problems with accuracy in my handguns other than I simply can't shoot well enough(that's a personal problem, not equipment).
    My cast loads shoot the same groups my jacketed loads do.
    I fail to see the problem with using an FCD. I think something may be going on about how the die is being used if you are having trouble with it.
    If my cases were having issues going through the FCD, I would have other problems, not the fault of the FCD.
    can't sum up my thoughts bout it better than what you posted here. that's exactly my experience with the fcd VS casts.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check