Can leading cause boolits to tumble in flight??

[Gunslinger]

I recently encountered a problem using a new powder. The gun is a 9mm (Tanfoglio) and the boolit is a 125gr spitzer. Barrel is slugged at .356 and my boolits are sizet .357. Due to increase in transport costs powder here has become quite expensive, so I wanted to try some cheaper powder. I bought a pound of Vectan AS. It's burn rate is equal to Red Dot.

My load is as follows:

125gr spitzer
Wheel Weights - air cooled
Magtech SP primer
Vectan AS - 3.3gr
Velocity - 1020fps

I get HORRIBLE leading (thank God for Chore Boy) and some of the boolits tumble in flight. I have shot thousands of thousands of this boolit using Vithavouri N320/3.6gr @ 1000fps and never had a problem with leading or tumbling. I use my own lube which I know works and use only a very light taper crimp. I'm an IPSC shooter so reducing velocity is not an option as my loads needs to be power factor 125.


What could be the reason for my problems? Do I get leading because this powder is faster?? And if so, would waterdropping help me? Wheel weights should be sufficient for 1000fps, so my guess is the problem is the powder....

What do you guys think?

[Bret4207]

I suspect your load is altering the dynamic fit of the boolit, that is, the boolit is probably stripping in the rifling giving you the leading and an undersized boolit which isn't able to grip the rifling so it tumbles. Water quenching may help, a bit of additional size might too, but of course there are limits to that. If WQ doesn't help at all you might need to juice you alloy to make it tougher or use a powder with a different burn rate.

[frkelly74]

Yes, I had bad leading to the point that the bullets tumbled with some 45 bullets that I over crimped when I was first loading for that.

[Bass Ackward]

What could be the reason for my problems? Do I get leading because this powder is faster?? And if so, would waterdropping help me? Wheel weights should be sufficient for 1000fps, so my guess is the problem is the powder....

Oh, you think WW should? WEll, it don't matter what you, I or anyone else thinks. Your gun has already rendered the decision for that gun and bullet combo.

Well, you are learning a valuable lesson. It's not just a pressure level.

It is also the rate of the pressure wave. And you have exceeded your lube / hardness combination.

Simple really, strengthen either your hardness or your lube to a more persistent lube or cut pressure. Since that option isn't available to you because of power factor, then you know what needs done.

You may be required to strengthen both.

So shooting cheap can be just the opposite if it requires a cost adjustment.

[epj]

I had a similar issue using Tightgroup with water cooled WW. Couldn't get through a magazine without tumbling. I changed to Clays, which is a fast powder but apparently burns cooler. Little or no leading now. Recently went to AA5. No issues with it or with 231/HP38.

[HeavyMetal]

Best procedure is to make changes one at a time until the leading goes away.

If this was my pistol problem I'd start out by water cooling a batch and see if that cures the problem.

If that didn't work I'd bump my alloy with a small amount of Tin

If that didn't work I'd consider a slight increase in diameter

If that didn't work I would then give some thought to changing lube or powder as funds allowed.

[44man]

Oh, you think WW should? WEll, it don't matter what you, I or anyone else thinks. Your gun has already rendered the decision for that gun and bullet combo.

Well, you are learning a valuable lesson. It's not just a pressure level.

It is also the rate of the pressure wave. And you have exceeded your lube / hardness combination.

Simple really, strengthen either your hardness or your lube to a more persistent lube or cut pressure. Since that option isn't available to you because of power factor, then you know what needs done.

You may be required to strengthen both.

So shooting cheap can be just the opposite if it requires a cost adjustment.

OH, MY!!!! Bass is thinking like me, I just can't believe it at all.
I think he found my hat.

[MtGun44]

Try a slower powder.

Bill

[Bass Ackward]

OH, MY!!!! Bass is thinking like me, I just can't believe it at all.
I think he found my hat.

Believe it or not, I have been saying this ever since I have been on the board. Either I write poorly as was suggested in another thread or you simply don't catch on. I believe it to be the "hat's too tight" theory.

It is USELESS to consider hardness (or softness) for a bullet alone. Think about that for a minute.

Bullet hardness required is dependent on a combination of lube quality and amount + bore condition + alignment (which can raise pressure dramatically above what is predicted in a revolver) + pressure curve.

Bore condition is the wild card depending on finish + dimensional integrity which includes dimensional uniformity and twist rate uniformity + firing rate. (temperature)

With the right conditions one man can get away with higher pressures or faster powders than another can. He doesn't mention the quality of his lube which is what I really suspect here.

Grabbing / latching on to a single variable / factor with cast is grossly wrong no matter what variable you key on. Cast is a total sum formula for success in each gun (bore condition). This is where you and I disagree as your belief seems to be rock hard and ignoring all the other variables.

And cast blankets seldom work across a broad line of handguns little alone different handgun platforms.

[btroj]

Can leading cause a bullet tumble? Yes. I have a GP100 that I shot some commercial cast in. Leaded like nothing else. By 50 rounds some bullets hit at 25 yards sideways. I had developed a 357 smoothbore.

As for hardness alone being the answer. No way. These bullets were the typical "hard" commercial cast. Still they leaded. Why? I finally measured a couple, advertised at .358, actual was .356. Hard does not overcome way undersized.

Like Bass said. Too many factors to allow us to focus on just one as "the answer" in all cases.

If it was easy would it be fun?

Brad

[deltaenterprizes]

Try 147 gr RN, they have more surface area to grip the rifling.

[fredj338]

What could be the reason for my problems? Do I get leading because this powder is faster?? And if so, would waterdropping help me? Wheel weights should be sufficient for 1000fps, so my guess is the problem is the powder....

What do you guys think?

I think so. Guys often report leading w/ uberfast powders & lead bullets or just poor accuracy in general w/ uberfast powders & lead. You could try water dropping to get them a bit harder, maybe they won't strip, but then they may not bump up to deal the bore either. I gave up on powders faster than WST for lead bullets long ago & prefer Unqiue or WSF or a powder in that burn range in service calibers.

[Gunslinger]

Thanks for all the info

When I started the thread I forgot to write which lube I used . Maybe my subconscious thought I could sneak it past ya'll.... but my conscious know that is not possible

The lube is made from 1 part beeswax, 1 part paraffin and 1 part vaseline. When everything is melted I add a 1/4 tablespoon graphite. I use this for everything, and it works. I usually see small flecks of lube on my target. Of course I can't remember if I saw any lube when I fired the 80 shots of this load.

I Have the same boolit but sized .358. I will try loading 50 rounds and see if that helps any. I load on a Dillon 650 so my rounds have a slight hourglass-shaped form, not sure if the .358 will chamber but there is only one way to find out! I have 500lbs lino waiting for me. Maybe now would be a good time to pick it up.

I will fireup the pot next week and cast me some boolits. I'll waterdrop them and then we'll see how they behave. If all else fails..... lino!!

I'm thinking that if a load does not lead the barrel within the first 50 rounds, it won't lead after 500. Is that a fair assumption??

[captaint]

If I saw a clean barrel after 50 rounds, I'd expect to see the same after 500. enjoy Mike