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Thread: Using hot 22LR ammo in old guns

  1. #21
    Boolit Master


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    Maybe it's just me but if you don't need the hotter ammo why use it. I do understand if it's all you can get. I generally use standard velocity for target shooting and really don't have a need for anything else even in newer guns.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master Drm50's Avatar
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    Early semi autos will take a beating from hyper velocity 22s. They can go metal to metal and can
    wreck the gun with one shot. I would not be afraid to shoot the Hi-vel, which is about standard
    now in a solid condition bolt action. I have seen the old single shots blow out the rim in extractor
    area from HI-V ammo. S&W revolvers on the old 22/32 I frame shold be only used with Standard
    V ammo, and they were the stronger one of the era. When you get to the improved I frame they
    will handle Hi-V, but I wouldn't shoot the Hyper in them. My brother had a Walther 22 that was a
    Bolt/ semi convertable, made about 1927 it was a beautiful little gun. He only fired target ammo
    in it. One of his inlaws fired a Stinger in it and the knob snapped off the bolt handle in semi mode.
    I have also see early Woodsman and Hi Standard auto pistols beat up from bulk Hi-speed ammo.
    Good rule of thumb, if you are in doubt don't use Hi-V in older guns, never Hyper-V.

  3. #23
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I have an *interesting* 22 LR target gun that I bought about 3 years ago. It started life as a Kimber 82G, but was altered into a rimfire benchrest rig by way of a truck-axle 21" barrel and 2 oz. trigger. Yes, that trigger scares me spitless. But can that rifle EVER SHOOT. I have about 1500 rounds through it now, and NONE have been hyper-velocity screamers. I have tried a half-dozen each of both HV and SV loads, and at 50 yards the 10-round group sizes with the HV stuff average about 10%-15% larger than the SV, and the group centers with SV hit about 1" to 1-1/4" lower than do their HV counterparts. Best load? Eley Subsonic 40 grain HP. But even CCI Mini Mags shoot under 1" groups at 50 yards. Conclusion--don't shoot cheap junk ammo in 22 LR.. The small boost in price between, say, bulk box 22 LR and Mini-Mags pays a handsome dividend in downrange accuracy and consistency. Conversely, downrange results between CCI SV or MM and Eley Tenex or Subsonic HP is not nearly as wide as their disparate pricing would lead you to believe. Not in my rifle, at least. Better, YES--but not 2X or 3X better. Conclusion--CCI makes some very good 22 LR ammo at reasonable pricing. I have not been able to try out any CCI Green Tag for a long time--I would like to, vs. the Eley in this fat-barreled monster.

    In the context of the O/P's question, the over/under on usage of HV or hyper-vel 22 LR ammo in a pre-1930s firearm weight heavily in favor of of standard velocity ammo. There isn't a huge fall-off in performance, trajectory difference at reasonable rimfire ranges is almost microscopic, and SV stuff of good make is darn accurate ammo.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master Jack Stanley's Avatar
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    I suspect it would really depend on the firearm you wanted to use the ammo in . The old High Standard model "D" I had would not be a good candidate . One of the new bolt actions you can use about anything .

    Jack
    Buy it cheap and stack it deep , you may need it !

    Black Rifles Matter

  5. #25
    Boolit Mold
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    I don't know why dad bought a Remington 241 in 22 sorts only but thats what I learned to shoot with. Back in the 50's the summers were hot Southwest Oklahoma's ecology had cornered the market on Jack rabbits, Bob White quail and bull frogs. Dad did't pay me an allowance he just paid me buck for dead Jack rabbit I shot and I paid for ammo. Running over them with the car didn't count. After the first summer any Jack that got up inside 100 yards was in serious trouble. I think my longest kill on a running Jack was 140 yards. The guys I hunted with all used 22 Long rifle ammo some with the hottest stuff they could find. I usually shot 39 g Remington ammo that was blazing along at 1,045 feet per second because it was the most accurate thing I could consistently find and afford.

    I was killing rabbits after the guys with me quit shooting because the rabbit was out of range for them or they were out of ammo.

    A neighbor long past away used to poach deer with 22 short in a single shot rifle. One shot was all he ever needed and shorts are almost the same as having a silencer. He told me if anyone ever approached him he disappeared in the night and the rifle went down a well, lake or in waiting hiding place.

    Get the most accurate ammo and leave the rest to the shooter.
    ----
    Man is the only creature that consumes without producing. He does not give milk, he does not lay eggs, he is too weak to pull the plough, he cannot run fast enough to catch rabbits. Yet he is lord of all the animals. - George Orwell

  6. #26
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I would be more concerned with the handguns as a lot of the target grade pistols list standard velocity ammo for them in the owners manuals. My Smith and Wesson 41, marvel conversion and colt ace state standard velocity. I have also found better accuracy with the standard velocity ammos than High velocity grades, especially at longer ranges. Going to hotter ammo will shorten the life of even the modern firearms meant for it over the lighter stuff.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master Jedman's Avatar
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    I have several of the early " boys " rifles, Stevens Crack Shot, H&A swinging block, ect. and they are not built solid enough for any of the modern Hi Velocity ammo.
    The pins are small and made of soft steel and even the hammers and breech blocks are not hardened enough to resist peening from some of the early standard velocity shorts so I would never shoot the hotter ammo in any gun that shows wear or is loose.

    Jedman

  8. #28
    Boolit Mold
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    My old Stevens Crack Shot 26 is marked on the chamber "No High Velocity Ammunition."

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
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    Remington saw fit to increase the size of the locking lug on the bolt when they redesigned the model 12 after hi-speed ammunition came out. Use of the hi-speed ammunition was breaking the lugs in model 12's.
    The difference in the lugs between model 12 and 121 bolts:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	model 12 and 121 bolt.jpg 
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  10. #30
    Boolit Master



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    I use .22 cal CCI shorts mini mags shoots very well and in the range of a standard 22LR.I shoot these in an old Remington 541 single shot that was made when?.I haven't taken the time to research the gun and may do that today.
    Are my kids/grandkids more important than "o"'s kids, to me they are,darn tooting they are!!! They deserve the same armed protection afforded "o"'s kids.
    I have been hoodwinked but not by"o"
    In God we trust,in "o" never trust
    Support those that support the Constitution and the 2nd Amendant

  11. #31
    Boolit Master
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    When did SAAMI set the 24kpsi standard?
    Seems to be dictated by the case as most all rimfires are the same max. pressure.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    The max pressures for all 22 RF cartridges are within 1,000 psi of one another. None are going to be "too much" for a fixed breech gun fit to be fired with any. The exception will be with blowback autoloaders where powder burning characteristics can effect the bolt blow back speed.

  13. #33
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    And beat the buffer to pieces.
    Whatever!

  14. #34
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    I stick with regular hi-speed loads since a Stinger blew the extractor off my son's 59 Remington. CCI Mini Mags are my favorite. I do use some subsonics in revolvers and my 581 Rem.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
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    The major concern in using modern .22 ammunition in very old rifles is that most older .22 rifles used very soft steel for the barrels, some even used brass barrel liners in a tubular steel jacket.
    I've seen numerous warnings against use of modern ammunition in some highly collectable .22 rimfire military training rifles still in use during WW2. The Winder "Musket" .22 was especially noted for developing badly swollen chambers after continuous use of high speed shorts.

    I've run across a few of the older pre WW2 rifles that have badly swollen chambers. The Hamilton News Boy rifles with brass liner ( to avoid corrosion) were noted for this. A Japanese replica of the Hamilton used a solid steel barrel to avoid this.

  16. #36
    Boolit Buddy
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    I have always stuck with standard velocity ammo in the older guns whenever in doubt. I have a collection of Stevens Boys rifles that I only use standard velocity. The larger 44 and 44 1/2 guns will handle the high velocity stuff but I usually use standard velocity any way. The Remington 541 simi auto was designed for high velocity. The 41 that it replaced was not and high velocity will damage it. Best to be cautious with the early stuff.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check