38/200 NOE Group Buy- Webley, Enfield, S&W Victory, Etc.

[happy7]

I shot some in my webley, enfield, and smith model 32, and smith victory.

I only got 520 fps though, so I need to up my powder charge. I was aiming for about 100 fps more than that. I will try to post what I used for powder, as I don't remember off the top of my head. I did not shoot for accuracy.

I also loaded up some of the HP bullets cast with 20:1. They did not expand even a teeny, tiny bit in wet phone books.

Any ideas? Obviously they can be pushed a little harder, and I think I will try casting from pure lead. I am afraid I might have to send the mold off to get bigger cavity pins made for it.

[LouisianaMan]

I'd try pure lead at 650 and see how she goes. According to Ed Harris, solid frame Smiths such as yours can go about 700 fps mean vel without loosening the gun. Ken Waters Pet Loads had some hotter recipes, for solid frames and also British top-latch guns, but the only way I personally might try to exceed 700 in .38-200 might be with 2400 powder in the Victory. You might even wind up having to go with 2400 in a .38 SPL case to get expansion from a soft 200g bullet.

Personally, I'm going to cast some of my solids from pure lead and others from WW to see how they act in targets. Soft lead is most effective against bone at these weights and vels, but perhaps a hard cast heavyweight might tumble through the target and deliver a heckuva blow in the process.

[happy7]

I finally did get a chance to shoot some more hollowpoints. This time they were cast from pure lead, and I added a little powder and got the velocity up to 600 fps average. I did get some expansion this time, but not really satisfactory.

I am thinking about trying to get some larger pins. I think that is pretty much the only option left. That should fix the problem, I hope.

[LouisianaMan]

I'd still try the 700 fps route before I would lose hope--if 600 is giving you some expansion, 650-700 may do the trick without unduly stressing your guns.

[happy7]

I guess I thought 600 FPS was about max with this bullet for this cartridge. I will have to look at it more closely and see if it can be pushed harder. Do you have any data that would support pushing it that fast and in what guns? Thanks.

[LouisianaMan]

Ken Waters' "Pet Loads" identified 3 "favorite" loads with Markell 200g bullets: 1 duplicated Brit service and he chrono'ed it at 610 with 2.0g Bullseye. The other 2: 702 with 2.5g of 700-X, and 784 with 3.6g of Herco. COL was 1.19" in all cases. He considered case expansion to be moderate for the Brit-equivalent load and maximum for the other two.

He also liked a Lyman 358315 at 711 achieved with 3.3g of Herco, and a COL of 1.37". He described case expansion as normal.

Granted, he used a Ruger that was built for India, but he stated explicitly that he considered these loads UNSAFE in top-breaks, but OK for use in Webley; Enfield; S&W Victory, Regulation Police, and Terrier; and Colt Police Positive, Detective Special, and Banker's Special.

I tend to be a bit more conservative, in line with a PM sent me by Ed Harris almost exactly a year ago, on 4 JAN 10: "NEI #161A flatnose weighs about 190 grains in soft alloy. In .38 S&W size bullets .360 or load as-cast and unsized. Seat bullets out to crimp in the top lubricating groove, rather than using the crimp groove. Correct charge is 3.5 grs. of Unique, 3.2 grs. of W231 or 3.0 of Bullseye. These are max for the J-frame, about 700 f.p.s. Reduce 10% in No. 2 Enfield top break guns."

I key on his statement that about 700fps is max for J frames, and he also recommends a 10% reduction for Enfields.

When all is said and done, both Waters and Harris agree that 650-ish works for Brit revolvers, 700 for J frames, and Waters has even hotter loads.

For me, the biggest questions remain: is 38-200 actually most effective in a 600-ish blunt LRN, because it destabilizes in a target yet pushes deep or even through it? And are these target effects reduced by flat-nosed bullets or higher vels that stabilize the bullet more & thereby prevent tumbling?

[happy7]

Ok, that is all very good information. I will go ahead and try 700 fps in my victory model. I would guess if any of them can take it, that one can. It should be able to handle anything up to 38 special velocities anyway.

[LouisianaMan]

I agree, Matt. If you get a chance to shoot/chrono/photo, I'd love to see how it comes out!

At some point I'm going to load mine to that level, as I currently have several 200g molds, and late next year will add the NOE Brit 38-200 LRN group buy. I want to see if I want to go that heavy with my 32-1 snubby, 4" 33-1, and Victory; the 610 fps load is quite controllable for me even in the snub, and in the Victory I can do super-fast (for me followup shots.

[LouisianaMan]

If anybody needs one and no more spares remain, please contact me. Mine is still NIB--I just have more similar molds than I can use