What the heck happened here???

[WildmanJack]

I have reloaded these rounds maybe 5 times. haven annealed them twice carefully I might add. Today i was setting down to reload them again and this is what Zi find!!! Not Ihave to admit, the shots were all over the place two days ago when iwent to the range. I am real anal about my reloads. Was using H4895 at 44.5 gr. under a 169 gr. Hornaday A-Max. now two weeks ago this load shot 1.4 " at 200 yds, three days ago they were all over the place.
These are all Winchester .30-06 cases bought new 5 shots ago..
Can somebody help me out here. I'm afraid to reload them again ...

[Doc Highwall]

It looks like they are on the soft side of being annealed and the shoulder was pushed back more because of less spring-back.

[nanuk]

At what stage of shooting/reloading are these?

How many shots since last anneal?

Do you full length size?

if the one on the right is factory, the others have Very long necks.
Did you use the correct sizing die?

[WildmanJack]

If you look carefully at the pictures you can see a line at the case mouth. I trimmed all the shells about a thousandth shorter than that line. I spoke to Waksupi and he suggested that the necks were also too long and that I may have had really high pressures. So I took his suggestion and trimmed the cases. I was worried if I could actually use them again as they were pretty deformed, but I figure they will probably fire form again after I shoot them. Nanuk, I think I was probably annealing too much and may have gotten the necks a bit soft. I reloaded about a dozen or so rounds and will see what happens at the range tomorrow...
Thanks for all the suggestions, I was really surprised when I looked at the shells when they came out of the tumbler...
Jack

[Doc Highwall]

I posted above about the cases being on the soft side and the shoulders being push back during sizing. The soft shoulders possibly could not support the impact of the firing pin, and were driven into the chamber creating a gap between the bolt face and the head of the cartridge, and the case was being fire formed resulting it the rounded shoulder.

[WildmanJack]

I guess that could be one of the reasons for my shots being all over the place as well, huh??
Jack

[waksupi]

Another thing, do not full length resize. Just size about 2/3 of the neck. You may also be pushing the shoulder back enough to be making headspace problems.

Looking at them, the cases don't show any signs of the annealing. I'm missing something here. How did you anneal them?

When you had first asked, I just focused on the obvious case mouth problem, but there is a lot of other stuff going on here.

[WildmanJack]

Ok, Normally I only neck size once they've been fired. ( in my rifle)..
jack

[Von Gruff]

I posted above about the cases being on the soft side and the shoulders being push back during sizing. The soft shoulders possibly could not support the impact of the firing pin, and were driven into the chamber creating a gap between the bolt face and the head of the cartridge, and the case was being fire formed resulting it the rounded shoulder.

Doc I cant quite see how that would cause a rounded shoulder as the chamber should if anything shorten the shoulder flat as even if the pin drove the case forward there should be enough pressure to fireform back to propper shape although a slightly lengthened case neck with thinned web would most probably be the result.
I have got a slightly rounded shoulder to sidewall when sizing 30-06 brass down to 7x57 but that straightens out on first firing.
I cant offer an explatation but with respect, I cant get on boardd with this one.

Von Gruff.

[Doc Highwall]

Von Gruff, I am thinking the mark on the case mouth was from the end of the chamber and the brass being softer had a chance to grab the chamber wall stretching the case back towards the case head. This is possibly why they did not fill out all the way, the neck only was over annealed and not far down the shoulder. In post 4 he stated that the cases were trimmed about .001" shorter then the line around the case mouth.
His load looks to be pretty much a max load of 4895, 44.5 grains with a 169 grain bullet.

[WildmanJack]

Doc,
Hodgdon says the load for a .30-06 with a 168 gr. Hornady HPBT is 43.0 Gr. Min 2574Vel 41,200 CUP 47.5Max 2789Vel 50,000 CUP
Now I realize I'm using an A-Max but is there that much of a difference between a 168 gr. hollow point and a 169 Gr. A-Max?????

Jack

[Ravenhawk57]

Maybe check the bolt for possible shift?

[Von Gruff]

Doc, I am under the assumption that the deformed case is from the chamber after firing resulting in the mark on the mouth of the case


I have reloaded these rounds maybe 5 times. haven annealed them twice carefully I might add. Today i was setting down to reload them again and this is what Zi find


maybe I am looking at things differently but if the case was over length with the case mouth extending past the chamber mounth enough to see this mark,, it would increase pressure to the extent that the case would be fireformed fully to the chamber including the shoulder. The only way I can see this result is if there was a LIGHT powder charge rather than the heavier charge noted, unless the chamber is a little oversized in the neck area, which otherwise may have resulted in such over pressure load that rifle damage might have resulted.

Wildman Jack, have you reviewed your loading procedures as far as powder charging is concerned. How do you get your powder charge, weighed or thrown. and are you sure this was the actual charge. I see Lee lists 60000 psi with 47.5 gn H4895 for the 168gn bullet.

Von Gruff.

[nicholst55]

Before I screwed with anything else, I would do a chamber cast. Let's see what the chamber looks like before we start changing everything in sight.

While I also suspect that the brass has been over-annealed and is too soft in the shoulder, let's eliminate other possibilities too. Jack, how did you anneal your brass? I personally use the Hornady gizmo with the heat-sink shell holders and the Tempilaq liquid. It's pretty much fool proof, even for such an experienced fool as I!

I'm not sure if that brass will fireform back to the original shape without head separations or not. I'd definitely check it with a bent paper clip before I tried.

One other thing - I normally fire brass 5-10 times before I anneal it, unless I'm experiencing other problems that indicate it's needed. Needing to anneal twice in 5 loadings indicates that something is amiss, IMHO.

[Doc Highwall]

Von Gruff, what I am thinking is the case closes to the mouth was over annealed and when fired between the force from the firing pin driving the whole cartridge case forward the softer neck was pulled at the same time into the lead of the barrel.

This would be like a black-powder case that was too soft with a heavily compressed powder charge.

His cases show varying degrees of shoulder sharpness and some thing has to account for this after five firings along with the greater case length.

[WildmanJack]

When I load I use an RCBS Chargemaster and calibrate it before starting. Before loading a round, I neck size and de-prime, Tumble, clean the primer pockets. Then I us an "M" die to slightly expand the neck and re-prime. Immediately after expanding and re-primimg I drop the powder, and seat the bullet. Then I measure the OAL of the round to make sure that it is .002 off the rifling.
When I anneal, I use an aluminum shell holder that goes into my drill. I darken the room and spin the drill as I put the shell mouth into the flame. As soon as I see even a hint of color I dump the round into a bucket and let it air cool.
I'm really careful about how I load so that's why I was so surprised to see the condition of the shells yesterday.
At this point I have trimmed all the shells as I said earlier, and reloaded them. I'm going to do my best to go to the range today and see what happens..
Jack

[redneckdan]

Doc,
Hodgdon says the load for a .30-06 with a 168 gr. Hornady HPBT is 43.0 Gr. Min 2574Vel 41,200 CUP 47.5Max 2789Vel 50,000 CUP
Now I realize I'm using an A-Max but is there that much of a difference between a 168 gr. hollow point and a 169 Gr. A-Max?????

Jack

Yes, two different bullet styles. The HP is probably a tangential curve, the A-max uses a secant curve.

[WildmanJack]

Well I went to the range today. It was probably 95 degrees!! Wind was quartering from my left shoulder at 10 gusting to 14. The old Savage shot like she was supposed to only BETTER. Between shortening the necks and changing to RL22 really tightened up my groups. Thanks to everyone that has contributed some kind of fix. You guys are an amazing wealth of knowledge...
Here's to the best website on the web, and the best brother shooters...
Jack

[waksupi]

How do your cases look today?

[WildmanJack]

They look like they should look, no more rounded corners, hard to tell the difference between them and new rounds.. Thanks a billion man. U were a huge help.. I owe u one..
Jack