Alox tumble lubing .30cal rifle???

[moptop]

Up to now I've been only been casting pistol bullets and have had good luck with tumbling Alox as a lube. Is Alox sufficent enough to use on rifle bullets, especially .30 cal ? I do not have a lubrisizer and use Lee's push through sizers so pan lubing would be my only option here if I need to use something else. I've had such good luck in casting for the several pistol calibers I shoot I thought I might try casting something to use in my 03A3 & Eddystone.

Thanks in advance for the help!!

[Thuban]

Moptop,
I'm gona take a shot at this. I'm not gona get this exactly right but, the Lee Alox your using is the new improved stuff. It used to be used as a component in an NRA mix and was called 2138F. I'm using it and I like it ok but maybe because I don't know any better. I bet it will work for you especailly if you use a second coat. I can't tell you for sure but one of these other guys , sleeping now, *G*, can tell you what fps you can expect to hit before you need something stronger...2200 fps sticks in my mind but..I dunno for sure.

Recluse has a good formula I'm asking him about. (See the top sticky) Others have made it, used it and with excellent results! It's mostly Johnson Paste Wax and Alox...A bit of mineral spirits to flow it out a bit when heated. In his formula the wax makes the Alox dry tack free as well as provide some kind of "ballistic rocket science." I'm not making fun of him or his recepie. He did an outstanding writeup, pix and all and still took 4,000 questions, mine included.

Check it out,

Thu

[fryboy]

this is the thread Thu is referring to ...

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/...ad.php?t=67654

ummm it's no longer alox 1238F BTW , it's a solvent cutback of alox 606 , there is a recipe ( in the recipe thread by molly i believe ) on how to make or approximate alox 1238 , that btw was a brand name that ceased when the company changed hands , IIRC it involves adding some micro wax etc , lee's LLA or lar's Xlox for most intents are the same stuff ( basically ) and LLA will dry if thinned and applied thin ( still seems tacky to me tho but not ummm stikki ) recluse's recipe does indeed dry without the tack if properly applied , in the case of either less is enough and more is too much , even if one doesnt size it should get two thin coats , the velocity level in a rifle will dependent upon several variables including fit ( that is termed king around here btw ) bore shape , alloy strength and velocity finally makes it in the list , as for velocity ... probably not for jacketed velocities but few cast boolits are pushed at 30-06 jacketed velocities , the lee second edition has alot of cast boolit info on the 30-30, .308 ,and the 30-06 - well worth the reads especially with the alloy data and how to reduce some powder charges to fit the alloy at hand ( personally being one of the more economical manuals out it's a bleepin' bargain ! that is if you can get past ol richard patting himself on the back so much :P ) but simply put yes alox is do-able in the 06

[Thuban]

Yep,
What Fryboy said.

I use the 2nd edition, not all I use but mostly.

I'm confuzzled. On the front of the Lee Alox bottle, it say " Coats the entire bullet with a soft, varnish like coating." "Gives better accuracy and less leading than the old formula of Alox 2138F and beeswax mix." and it continues... So isn't it implying this is a new formula Alox?

So, I could mix this and beeswax to get the NRA formula? It's getting early. I may have to go back and re-read. Hahhaa

Thanks Fryboy,
Thu

[Recluse]

I'm confuzzled. On the front of the Lee Alox bottle, it say " Coats the entire bullet with a soft, varnish like coating." "Gives better accuracy and less leading than the old formula of Alox 2138F and beeswax mix." and it continues... So isn't it implying this is a new formula Alox?

So, I could mix this and beeswax to get the NRA formula?

Not exactly.

As I understand it, the old 2138F was more of a solid, like cosmoline, whereas the LLA stuff is more of a liquid.

I do know that mixing LLA and beeswax will not give you the old standard NRA formula.

[fryboy]

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/...2&postcount=14

i was right ( happens once in awhile :P ) the post was by molly , there's alot of info on that whole thread and even tho i have read and re-read repeatedly i still am learning from it , even worse ? there's more :P
this is really good reading

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLubeCastBullets.htm

and this has a pretty decent breakdown of what's what etc in a lube

http://www.lasc.us/LubeIngredients.htm

and some various classic post by some of our members ( found in the castpic's link at the bottom of every page here
http://www.castpics.net/
)

http://www.castpics.net/classics/Howlubeworks.htm

http://www.castpics.net/classics/Selectingalube.htm

[wiljen]

NOPE!!!!


Tumble lube has always been solvent cut Alox 606-55HF.

The Alox 2138F that was replaced by alox 350 was used in 50/50 stick lube.


This is a real common misconception Alox is a branding and there are many products in the line.

[nanuk]

I bought a solid block of alox of EvilBay some time ago. (working nightshift on Christmas Eve and New Years Eve has its benefits)

I paid pretty much nothing for it.

Now I question what I actually have.

is there some way to easily tell what it it?

[454PB]

nanuk, you probably have some of the old 2138F. I bought 5 pounds of it many years ago and mixed it 50/50 with beeswax.

2138F is nearly black, and is about the consistency of stiff modeling clay....also VERY sticky.

[Armorer]

I do not have a lubrisizer and use Lee's push through sizers so pan lubing would be my only option here if I need to use something else.

I finger lube my .30 boolits with some White Label lube and push em through a .309 Lee sizer and it works great. Takes longer than cutting them out of a cake I'm sure, but I only do maybe 40 or 60 at a time.

[Fire_stick]

moptop,
I have tumble lubed the Ranch Dog TLC311-165FN and shot in my 308 Marlin Express. Killed 2 deer this season. I had to do a bit of trial and error to find the right formula for my gun. Keep notes, know your gun (bore size, twist rate, chamber dimensions, etc..). Cast your bullets for success in your rifle. Enjoy the process of finding the key.

I'm about to journey on finding a bullit and load for my Mosin Nagant.

Where there is a will, there is a way. It can be done.

[Rangefinder]

LLA works fine on rifles--so long as you aren't trying to set any velocity records that would obviously be a bad idea anyway. I use it through my AK, Mosin, and 32 Win Spl. with no ill-effect what so ever. Couldn't tell you a velocity ceiling off-hand, but the short answer is yes--it will work. Start low and work your load up.

[Larry Gibson]

Moptop

I concur with Rangefinder. If you are using LLA it will work just fine. If it seems too thick the simply run a little hot water in the sink and let the bottle of LLA sit in itfor 5 minutes, that will thin it out very nicely. I have ran several tests with TL style bullets and standard groove types in 6.5/.30/.31 cals using LLA up through 1900 fps with excellent results. I like to very, very lightly tumble lube them and then size and seat/crimp on the GC. Then I dip them base first into the LLA and set them on their base to dry over night. Another pass through the sizer cleans them up. That way the noses don't have enough lube on them to gunk up the seating dies or collect dirt.

Larry Gibson

[wiljen]

All the solid block Alox I have seen on Ebay in quite some time has been 350. It has been 10+ years now since 2138f was readily available so unless "some time ago" means a couple decades, there is a good chance it is Alox 350.

I bought a solid block of alox of EvilBay some time ago. (working nightshift on Christmas Eve and New Years Eve has its benefits)

I paid pretty much nothing for it.

Now I question what I actually have.

is there some way to easily tell what it it?

[alamogunr]

If you have Alox 350 and want to make NRA lube, go to the thread link that fryboy posted. I got my information from Molly sometime prior to that post and it works. Can't tell the difference between it and the NRA lube I bought from Gar many years ago.

John
W.TN

[nanuk]

alamogunr:
any idea where one can get Petrolite C-700 (Microcrystalline wax) ?

[alamogunr]

alamogunr:
any idea where one can get Petrolite C-700 (Microcrystalline wax) ?

Not really. Do a google on microcrystalline wax and see what pops up. A chemist or a petroleum engineer could probably steer you right. The only thing I remember about the sample I have is I found a company by doing as I recommended above. I think that Petrolite C-700 is a brand name of a common item.

I think I was told that microcrystalline wax is a by-product of the refining process. The stuff I have is little white beads.

John
W.TN

[wiljen]

Not really. Do a google on microcrystalline wax and see what pops up. A chemist or a petroleum engineer could probably steer you right. The only thing I remember about the sample I have is I found a company by doing as I recommended above. I think that Petrolite C-700 is a brand name of a common item.

I think I was told that microcrystalline wax is a by-product of the refining process. The stuff I have is little white beads.

John
W.TN

http://www.generalwax.com/wax-additi..._P0787010.html

Same stuff and sold by the Lbs.

[Molly]

NOPE!!!!
Tumble lube has always been solvent cut Alox 606-55HF.
The Alox 2138F that was replaced by alox 350 was used in 50/50 stick lube.
This is a real common misconception Alox is a branding and there are many products in the line.

Wiljen, just FYI, Alox 606-55HF is a 55% solids solution of Alox 606 in High Flash Naphtha, IIRC. 100% Alox 606 is almost as tough as a block of rubber.

[MikeS]

One thing that should be mentioned, and will hopefully explain why there's so much confusion. Alox was a company name, with the number being the particular product. Then the company got sold to another company, and Alox became a brand name. So Alox 2138F is one product, Alox 606-55HF is a different product, etc. Alox 2138F was discontinued when the company was sold, but another product Alox 350 is very close, and many people use it in the 50/50 mixture of Alox and beeswax. If you add microcrystaline wax to Alox 350 you get closer to the Alox 2138F product.

The confusion is that people think 'Alox' is the product, but really it's only part of the product's name, the numbers that follow are very important! The NRA formula boolit lube used Alox 2138F mixed with beeswax in a 1:1 mix (50/50), and it came out in the 1950's, hence it's called 'old'. Tumble lubing with LLA is a fairly new thing, some folks love it, some hate it. I have a couple of tumble lube design boolit moulds, and I use a tumble lube on them (sometimes LLA sometimes Recluse's 45/45/10 formula, sometimes JPW alone, etc.) and have had good luck with them.