bp j-word

[bigted]

im hoping that if i whisper this out ...maybe i can squeek by with as little scuffing as possible.

i have a rifle that just lain will NOT shoot cast boolits...nope we wont go there...take it from me...it just wont! soooooo...i am experimenting with the j-words to see if i cant salvage this barrel with a shooter yet. question is tho...i still wanna shoot bp in it bit as much as i peer at these smooth bullets i cant seem to find a greese groove anywhere. sooooo...can i shoot a cookie behind this bullet and if so...how do i go about it so these wont choke this barrel out in a shot or two? am i faced with scrubbing out the bore with every shot? somebody has gotten to have been here before...pleeeeeeese?

oh yes you guessed it....rifle is the by now famous 45-120 chambered browning 1885 hiwall [moruky]

[Don McDowell]

Ted the best I know to tell you is to try it. Got nothing to loose I suppose.
But seems to me the better option might just be, to set that barrel back enough to rechamber to a 2 7/8.

[bigted]

don...wont work as the "flair" at the breech end would then be set back enough that the wood would be impossible to make fit and also with this chamber being at least .120 long in the first place...the barrel would have to be set back at least half an inch to clean up for the 110 to be a good chamber...then the indexing to assure that the sights and dovetails were properly aligned would be as much [dollor wise] as just plain re-barreling with one of the two new barrels i have on the way. besides this i can only imagine the abuse this barrel has had in its past...such as WHY did somebody feel the need to re-chamber to the longer/bigger chamber...know what i mean?

anyway i just wanted to fool with this thing before the "fix" is done to it and see if by some remote possibility i cant get this POS to shoot good for me without the headacke of the lead mining i "suffer" everytime i pull the trigger on a cast boolit no matter where i set it out to or how big or small it starts life out to be.

ive never made a greese cookie so thought id ask for some guidance here.

[DeanWinchester]

I want to know why this is so taboo. I once mentioned using gas checks with BP to a BPCR shooter. You'd think I had told him God didn't exist!

First and foremost, it's your gun. You can beat it against a light pole if it makes you smile. Who the heck is anyone to tell you that J/bullets or gas checks in my case is verboten?

That sort of stuff kicks up my dander.

Hey Bigted, do it. Do it safely and post your results. I want to know.

[deepwater]

What do you mean by won't shoot cast bullets?
Accuracy?
Leading?
Fouling?
What alloys have you tried?

[deepwater]

Just re-read some of the posts.
I "retract" some of my questions.
So, what alloy?

[Lead pot]

I have a Pedersoli 120 that I had some problems getting it to shoot. It was a early Quigley model they came out with that had a very long cylinder free bore and it just would not shoot a cast bullet that had the reduced nose (bore riding step) unless I seated the bullet so far out of the case mouth that only 1/10" of the bullet was in the case, that is how deep the throat was to the base of the lands.
That wasn't very practical for how I wanted to use this rifle for. I ordered a set of .448 1-S swage dies and swaged some and patched them to .456" and made that rifle shoot as good as any of my black powder cartridge rifles.
I also used some of the swaged 500 gr .458 Jacketed bullets I used in the .45-70 Marlin in the 120 and used a felt lube wad under the bullet with black powder and it shot very good with the bullet seated tight against the land but the copper fouling started to build up and made shooting cast or the PP bullets a thing in the past till I got all the copper cleaned out again. The GG would tumble by the time they got to the 200 yard line.
Just make sure you load them like you a GG or anything else with black powder keep it on the powder, no short loads.

[Boz330]

Try the JBs but use a duplex load with a grease cookie. Should solve the fouling problem. If you want to tone the load down use a filler or more wads.
I use an active filler in my Martini Henry since those cases hold 115gr of BP and the gun isn't that heavy.
There actually were jacketed loads with BP, 303 Brit comes to mind right off the top of my head. It wasn't used very long though.
JMHO but if were mine I think that I would re-barrel it.

Bob

[NickSS]

I have shot some Jaketed bullets with blak powder. In fat the very first metalic cartridges I reloaded was 303 British with a case full of home made black powder and a Jacketed bullet seated on top. I have also fired J-word bullets in a 45-70 and a 38-55 with black powder. I never used any lube and have fired up to 100 rounds in one sitting. What I found was that the Jackets tended to push the fouling out but I did have some copper fouling that I had to clean out with copper solvent. Of historical note I had a couple of rounds of 43 Spanish ammo that was factory loaded with FMJ bullets and black powder. They would not fire as the primers had gone bad so I pulled the bullets and found that they were loaded right on top of the black powder which was compressed enough to be almost solid. The powder burned fine and there was no lube wad in the case.

[longhorn]

Didn't some of the "Express" loadings use (early) jacketed bullets with BP? I vaguely recall a Ross Seyfried article on exactly this sort of project a few years ago and it looked pretty successful to me: I even considered buying a No 1 in .45-70 and rechambering to the .45-120, then shooting relatively lightweight jacketed bullets over black, but re-considered after reading his comments on twist rate. I think jacketed over black will be practical, but only one way to know if they'll shoot!

[405]

I want to know why this is so taboo. I once mentioned using gas checks with BP to a BPCR shooter. You'd think I had told him God didn't exist!

First and foremost, it's your gun. You can beat it against a light pole if it makes you smile. Who the heck is anyone to tell you that J/bullets or gas checks in my case is verboten?

That sort of stuff kicks up my dander.

Hey Bigted, do it. Do it safely and post your results. I want to know.

Good post, my sentiments exactly.

[405]

I have shot some Jaketed bullets with blak powder. In fat the very first metalic cartridges I reloaded was 303 British with a case full of home made black powder and a Jacketed bullet seated on top. I have also fired J-word bullets in a 45-70 and a 38-55 with black powder. I never used any lube and have fired up to 100 rounds in one sitting. What I found was that the Jackets tended to push the fouling out but I did have some copper fouling that I had to clean out with copper solvent. Of historical note I had a couple of rounds of 43 Spanish ammo that was factory loaded with FMJ bullets and black powder. They would not fire as the primers had gone bad so I pulled the bullets and found that they were loaded right on top of the black powder which was compressed enough to be almost solid. The powder burned fine and there was no lube wad in the case.

Here's a pic of the earlier cousin to the 11.15x58R (43 Spanish). It's an arsenal 11.5x57R Spanish Reformado, with the plated FMJ bullet and loaded with BP. According to COtW, the Reformado was in service from 1867 to 1871 and used in both the Rem Rolling Block and some converted muzzleloaders. Standard load was 395 gr military FMJ ball, 74 gr Fg blackpowder.

[bigted]

rite on fellas...im off to work again for 7 so the experiment will wait till then but im encouraged to give this a try with black. i still havnt read how to make a cookie tho. i guess ill take a felt 45 wad and soak it in lube to try over the powder and seat a dry one rite on the powder. also ill try these with no cookie at all just compressed powder and the bullet.

thanks again for the encouragment and ill dang sure do this before i rebarrel...which i have on the way just to have in case i cant get this to shoot jacketed either.

reasson it will not shoot cast is the looooong chamber and the oversize chamber mouth which allows the boolit to obterate rite away before it even gets out of the mouth of the case which makes it need to "swage" down rite away to go past the chamber mouth of the barrel then "swage" further to go into the leed and contact the rifling. ive dug lead outta this POS for the last time one way or the other....just no fun.....maybe the jacketed will make the difference. i really like the look on folks faces when i pull out these big ol cases and let fly with a cloud of smoke downrange tho.

[405]

bigted,
For grease cookie- Melt a thin layer of lube in a small flat bottom container- the thickness of what you want- usually about 1/16-1/8" thick. Let cool and harden (fairly soft BP lubes work best). Charge case with powder. Place a card wad into case and lightly compress charge column. Use case mouth to "cookie cutter" a lube wad out of the pan (the lube wad is now in the case). Place another card wad on top. Seat bullet.

[montana_charlie]

The advice above is fine for putting a grease cookie in the case. But there is one thing to be aware of.

Make certain the overpowder wad is seated all the way down to where you will want it to be.
It takes some arithmetic to figure the right depth.

Once the lube cookie is in place, you can't compress the powder any further (if your calculations happen to be wrong) because the cookie will 'hydraulically' push out a ring in the brass, all the way around the case.

CM

[Don McDowell]

From the few times I messed with jacketed bullets and bp, I don't think a grease cookie is going to do much to be of any help. The lubed felt wad will provide a bit more "scrubbing" action going down the tube, but generally speaking lubes and copper jackets don't mix real well....