My homemade black powder

[Dapaki]

@Dapaki
Looks like you live on MN.
Did you look up Pryo Chem Source?.
That is where I get my Kno3 at about $3 a pound
They are out of MN.

Yupper, I think that's Tim's business, he was out of Rochester before his mom died.

[Fly]

Graphite should you use it in your powder? I,m not a guy that will argue with anyone. I will discuss a topic but NEVER argue. Arguing servers no purpose, but
discussion does. Some time back some one ask about using graphite in there powder. I posted no that it can make you powder harder to ignite & slow it down
some. Well some others chimed in saying they used it to help powder flow better from the flask which it will. At the time of the late 1700,s the British tried using
it & reported it cased misfires from time to time.

Back when I was doing much testing I found that to be true & infact slowed the burn. After reading the rebuttal on the form to my statement on this I just let
it go rather than getting into augment. I happen to come across this video by chance & thought I would post it, so you can be the judge as to if you want to use
it with your powder. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOHdc83ULzA

Fly

[Dapaki]

Graphite should you use it in your powder? I,m not a guy that will argue with anyone. I will discuss a topic but NEVER argue. Arguing servers no purpose, but
discussion does. Some time back some one ask about using graphite in there powder. I posted no that it can make you powder harder to ignite & slow it down
some. Well some others chimed in saying they used it to help powder flow better from the flask which it will. At the time of the late 1700,s the British tried using
it & reported it cased misfires from time to time.

Back when I was doing much testing I found that to be true & infact slowed the burn. After reading the rebuttal on the form to my statement on this I just let
it go rather than getting into augment. I happen to come across this video by chance & thought I would post it, so you can be the judge as to if you want to use
it with your powder. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOHdc83ULzA

Fly

We call it "Glazed" powder in pyrotechnics but in reality, it's tumbled, glazed and dusted. The graphite does indeed draw off some of the initial heat allowing it to burn slower but also helps it to flow better in small grains. The issue really is not the graphite (It takes only a small pea size to treat several pounds of BP) but the tumbling. Looking at freshly corned BP under a microscope, it has very sharp edges, lots of surfaces that are jagged and take very little heat to get it burning and allow air passages between grains to propagate the fire from grain to grain.

When you tumble the corned BP, it removes all the sharp edges, adding graphite polishes the grains even further and then with dusting, all of the 'fines' are removed and it is screened as well leaving a consistent grain size that compacts nicely (allowing for a heavier, uncompressed charge) and even provides nominal moisture protection but with a very smooth and difficult to light surface.

Modern glazed BP has been engineered using charcoal types that provide more VOC's to boost the 'power' of BP to more than make up for any short comings experienced by Britain in the late 1800's when they ordered glazing to stop for military contracts. FG (sporting grade) powders are mostly glazed while FA (blasting grade) are not glazed.

There is no good reason to not use FA in sporting guns but attention must be paid to the grain size difference, for example, FFg is 16 mesh 3% 30 mesh 12%, while 5FA is 20 mesh 3% 50 mesh 12%.

In pyrotechnics, we use FFA mostly but this equates to Whaling powder in sporting grade!

Good luck and make some smoke!

[Fly]

We in pyrotechnics! I have been in pyrotechnics for over 20 years & a long standing member of the PGI. Black powder for guns is a different ball game. I helped start this thread & we are very
proud of it. We pride our self of not confusing people. This is not lift powder. Bud I will NOT ague as I said I post that video & ask people to make up there
own mine.

Fly

[Dapaki]

I too am a PGI member and teach classes there but you are wrong about one thing: black powder is black powder. It is the coating, grain size and held mesh size that differentiate it.

Yes, people can make up their own minds but they should at least have all the information, even if you don't agree with it.

[Vettepilot]

We call it "Glazed" powder in pyrotechnics but in reality, it's tumbled, glazed and dusted. The graphite does indeed draw off some of the initial heat allowing it to burn slower but also helps it to flow better in small grains. The issue really is not the graphite (It takes only a small pea size to treat several pounds of BP) but the tumbling. Looking at freshly corned BP under a microscope, it has very sharp edges, lots of surfaces that are jagged and take very little heat to get it burning and allow air passages between grains to propagate the fire from grain to grain.

When you tumble the corned BP, it removes all the sharp edges, adding graphite polishes the grains even further and then with dusting, all of the 'fines' are removed and it is screened as well leaving a consistent grain size that compacts nicely (allowing for a heavier, uncompressed charge) and even provides nominal moisture protection but with a very smooth and difficult to light surface.

Modern glazed BP has been engineered using charcoal types that provide more VOC's to boost the 'power' of BP to more than make up for any short comings experienced by Britain in the late 1800's when they ordered glazing to stop for military contracts. FG (sporting grade) powders are mostly glazed while FA (blasting grade) are not glazed.

There is no good reason to not use FA in sporting guns but attention must be paid to the grain size difference, for example, FFg is 16 mesh 3% 30 mesh 12%, while 5FA is 20 mesh 3% 50 mesh 12%.

In pyrotechnics, we use FFA mostly but this equates to Whaling powder in sporting grade!

Good luck and make some smoke!

This consistently confuses me. (Not all that hard to do.) Ok, so I get it that the FFG granulation will pass through a 16 mesh, and be held, or NOT pass through a 30 mesh. Right?? So what does the "3%" and "12%" part mean??

Thanks,
Vettepilot

[Dapaki]

Vette,

Let me take a step back and address Fly first. Black powder is generally made loosely to Sir Francis Bacon's original 75:15:10 recipe, milled, stamped/pressed, caked, corned and sized. Fa or FG, it's generally made the same way with small changes in charcoal type in order to 'speed it up', in a fashion. The finishing and grading is where the SAME mill makes the SAME black powder and finishes it differently.

Yes, SWISS is different than WANO and Elephant, SCHUETZEN , GOEX and Diamondback. They all have some changes in the recipe but in the end, just like smokeless, they can all be dialed in to propel an object from a mortar or rifle or pistol or canon. The bore size determines the size of the grain needed, the buffer (glazing and graphite) and the charge weight. There really is no "making up your own mind" with empirical data, it simply is what it is and we have to consider the limitations and correct use for our needs.

Back to your question, "Ok, so I get it that the FFG granulation will pass through a 16 mesh, and be held, or NOT pass through a 30 mesh. Right?? So what does the "3%" and "12%" part mean??".

I'm sorry I forget that mesh size is not a common knowledge thing, so yes, the smaller number (16 mesh) has a larger hole and the larger number (30 mesh) has a smaller hole. This is based on wire weave so it's not necessarily universal so beware.

Powder Grade (FFg)
Screen (16 mesh)
Passes Screen (3%)
Holding (30 mesh)
Passing (12%)

Using a 16 mesh screen, only allow a nominal amount (3%) to not pass through then using a 30 mesh screen under it, you should only allow 12% of that grain size to pass the screen.

In laymans terms; use what passes through a 16 mesh screen but sits on a 30 mesh screen for FFg.

[Fly]

You are not telling us anything that has not been gone over many times here. What have you taught at the PGI & when for I have been to so many over the years. I
have built tooling for years & sold it to many of the top rocket masters at the PGI, maybe, I know or would remember you if you taught a class there. What topic did
you teach?
If you read this thread from the start you would see how much has been covered on this topic. We started it many years ago & is the largest thread on the entire net on BP making. When we started it most sites would not let the topic be allowed. But thanks to the people here they
opened the doors to this. The rest is history.

Fly

[Dapaki]

Ben? Rich is dead and Caleb is too laid back to fight and Steve doesn't make tooling anymore.

I get it now and yes, I read the thread only took me a week to do so. We are both on the same page, brother.

[Hotfxr]

Well it's been a while since anyone posted here, and with the shelter in place orders going around, I have been going stir crazy. Since my whole family is here with me 24/7, it's been a good opportunity to stock up on powder & balls. Being as I haven't even shot up a pound of powder in the last two years, I had a couple of pounds of pucks that I ground up and packed in to 1 oz foil pellets. A buddy gave me several pounds of lino type lead and I cast a couple dozen cannon balls. These aren't round ones, they are more like minne balls. Averaging 17 3/4 oz a piece they should fly out of the cannon like , well like being shot out of a cannon. I have 32 one ounce packets and as soon as I can get up to the ranch, Ill blast it all. We will be looking for 1000 yard accuracy.

Hope everyone is well & healthy during this very strange time.

[Dapaki]

Love to see the video!

[indian joe]

This consistently confuses me. (Not all that hard to do.) Ok, so I get it that the FFG granulation will pass through a 16 mesh, and be held, or NOT pass through a 30 mesh. Right?? So what does the "3%" and "12%" part mean??

Thanks,
Vettepilot

Vettepilot
I think the percent held or passed is jingo lingo that came from industrial processes where time means money and the process has to be fast
My take - FFG is screened through a 16mesh and wont fall through a 30 mesh - however 3% of FG (larger than 16mesh) is allowed to get in and also 12% of FFFg (smaller than 30 mesh) so its a mix thats mainly FFg size grains.

From my observations of commercial powder the specifications are pretty darn flexible some of which is likely done to get an edge in the market but also we know from making the stuff its not possible to get just one grain size in the processing .

Mesh is not mesh either, the number refers to number of wires per inch in a weave, if the gauge of the wires changes at all then the hole between the wires changes while still the same mesh number.

- I shake the daylights out of my powder on the screens - 12% of FFFg in my FFg is flat out not acceptable - I use my FFg for match loads in my cartridge rifles so every grain of it will pass a 16 mesh and nothing that I call FFg will pass a 24 mesh screen - we use FFFg in the cowboy calibers (44/40 and 38/40) and use more of it so 24 to 40 mesh is our version of FFFg - I recently obtained some 50 mesh screen so might broaden my specs on FFFg a bit more - if it suits what we want to do.

Have to add here - Fly's posts to this thread over the time I have been here (started about page 50) have been a huge help to me in making quality cartridge grade powder - homemade shooting Extreme spread under ten FPS over the chronygraph has been achieved - he gives us the info straight up without making things complicated - dont argue with the master - there might be another way that works as well but none better.

[LAGS]

I have been spending this time at home to make my powder.
I have limited screens at this time so I sort my powder this way.
If it stays on my #20 screen , then that is Fg
If it passes thru the #20 screen , but won't pass thru my #30 screen , then that is what I use as FFg.
If it passes thru a #30 screen , but won't pass thru a #50 then that is what I use as FFFg.
I don't have a Flinter at this time.
So anything that will pass thru the #50 screen I call FFFFg.
Since I am not going to use that anytime soon , I just dampen it and repress it for regrinding.
I do not shoot in competition , or load cartridge guns, so my grading works just fine for everyday shooting.

[Vettepilot]

Ok. Thanks guys!!

I totally agree about Fly being a super helpful and knowledgeable member here, and I am sure glad he is here!!

Lags, did you ever get around to checking around Cottonwood and the river for Willow and Tree of Heaven??

Thanks,
Vettepilot

[LAGS]

@Vettepilot.
Because of these recent restrictions , I have not ventured to far from home.
But finding some local Willow trees or even Trees of Heaven is on the top over my list.
I recently had a friend move to Yuma Az.
I will ask him if either of those trees grow down there, since that part of the state is not the same as it is in central Az.
He is also a BP shooter , but does not make his own BP ,Yet

[indian joe]

I have been spending this time at home to make my powder.
I have limited screens at this time so I sort my powder this way.
If it stays on my #20 screen , then that is Fg
If it passes thru the #20 screen , but won't pass thru my #30 screen , then that is what I use as FFg.
If it passes thru a #30 screen , but won't pass thru a #50 then that is what I use as FFFg.
I don't have a Flinter at this time.
So anything that will pass thru the #50 screen I call FFFFg.
Since I am not going to use that anytime soon , I just dampen it and repress it for regrinding.
I do not shoot in competition , or load cartridge guns, so my grading works just fine for everyday shooting.

Lags
I think what you are doing is what this is really all about - making do with stuff you have - grading the powder to suit how you want it - cant do better than that!
I dont even corn my muzzleloader powder - just make a damper dough, push it through some window screen to dry in the sun, screen it to shoot - its much less dense but grain for grain (by weight) I get equal velocity to proper corned stuff from the same mix (2% dexrin in that window screen stuff is the only difference) doing this way is quicker - much less work - just need to shovel a bit more quantity down the hole - measures hold about 25% less. That powder has won me several events since I started doing it - no handicap at all.
Powder for the cartridge guns gets the proper job - pressed pucks etc .

[Dapaki]

.......I dont even corn my muzzleloader powder - just make a damper dough, push it through some window screen to dry in the sun, screen it to shoot - its much less dense but grain for grain (by weight) I get equal velocity to proper corned stuff from the same mix (2% dexrin in that window screen stuff is the only difference) doing this way is quicker - much less work - just need to shovel a bit more quantity down the hole - measures hold about 25% less.....

Not so much for you, Joe but n00bs reading this post need to know: That's Pulverone, not Black Powder. It can be as hot or hotter than BP but is not nearly as durable as corned BP. A person can end up with a lot of 'fines' and get an unwelcome pressure spike.

[LAGS]

Indian Joe.
This is what I try to tell other people.
And the powder you can produce with the minimum of materials and tools will far exceed what most average shooters will ever need.
But even weighing out everything and investing a little bit of time doing it , I still can't figure out where all the Fun got added to the mix.
It is not in the percentages of the mix , but it just shows up, both when making the powder and when shooting the powder.
There just isn't any fun in driving all over town to find a few pounds of BP , or having to settle for some modern immitation powder substatute.

[LAGS]

BTW.
What mesh size do you prefer to screen your powder ?
You said Window screen.
But that varies greatly.
And do you grind the corse stuff after initial screening to get the fine stuff out ?

[indian joe]

Not so much for you, Joe but n00bs reading this post need to know: That's Pulverone, not Black Powder. It can be as hot or hotter than BP but is not nearly as durable as corned BP. A person can end up with a lot of 'fines' and get an unwelcome pressure spike.

Not really into definitions so I'll leave that bit
Theres a couple of cans close handy so
Just for fun
I poured out a one kilo can, the last of a batch branded 2018 - so 2 years old or close
No clumps - none at all - I dry this stuff properly before it goes in the can
Negligible fines and very little dust
Grain structure is still intact - a little softer than the puck pressed stuff (always was)
Quite noticeably darker than the "proper powder" - I believe thats a function of the extra water used in the processing somehow
So yair you are right but its really not that big of a deal at this end and the cure is easy - shoot it off before it gets old!