My homemade black powder

[2TM101]

If you should exceed getting anything much higher than around 92-94%, I think we would all be very interested in your procedure. I know I would love to be able to jump over that hurtle.

I measured my Gray/Manganese/pyrolusite powder yesterday and got 0.88 Grams per CC. So I had 51% the density of commercial powder. Lot of room for improvement there.

[Sandro_ventania]

My goal is to make a powder that when poured from my flask into my measure
The volume is same as weight. I.e. 100grains weight is 100 grains volume give or
take a grain. I dont think its neccesary but half the fun for me is making blackpowder.
Other half is smoking out my little field where i shoot.

I can do much more than that. I can reach up to 2g/cc.

[LAGS]

Isn’t that not Black Powder ?
Does it have to compare to BP in weight and volume ?

[LAGS]

I was able to find several containers of powder that I had made before that the compression ratio was lower than I like.
For example,
I had some CIA powder that I made that was screened.
It was only 56 gr to 100 grains of volume.
So I re ground it in my coffee grinder and pressed it into pucks.
Now when re ground it comes out at 85 gr to 100 gr of volume.
I also had some corned powder made with Tree of Heaven charcoal.
It was only around 70 gr to 100 gr volume.
After re pucking it and re grinding it, it also came out to 85 gr to 100 gr volume.
Re picking your low density powders is a little bit of work.
But it does work and will probably be useful if you need to up the density on some of your powders to use them in BP revolvers or BP cartridge guns.
I may also try and make some more CIA style powder on my hot plate.
But ,
When I first screen it.
Rather then letting it dry out fully, I will put it in my die and press it into pucks.
I want to see of doing the mixing wet with heat might help Up the density even more than Corning milled powder .

[Trapper-Jack]

For what it's worth, most all my pucks that have been compressed the first time are between 1.7 and 1.8 g/cc. When I re-puck my fines, they usually are between 1.8 and 1.9 g/cc.
This is dry density.. This is in the puck stage. After grinding the ground powder (2F compared to 2F) will be 92 to 93% the weight of Goex for the same volume. Now with that said, I am getting about the same velocity, volume to volume. as Goex. Same rifle, ball, patch and measure. The only thing different is the powder.

[LAGS]

I have a question on how you figure that density compared to grams to a CC.
I have a Lee scoop that is 1 CC
Also one that is 4 CC’s
When I weigh Goex powder using those CC scoops , the 1 CC scoop weighs about 15 grains
And the 4CC scoop volume weighs 60 grains
That converted to Grams from grains comes out to .972 grams per CC
Per the schedule that comes with the Lee scoop set.
The 1 CC scoop using 3f BP should weigh 15.9 grains.
But that Goex powder is very old and I bet other brands are close to weights but not exact.
But what I am looking for is , where does that 1.7 or 1.8 grams per CC come into play?
In grains, that would be 1.7 grams weighs 26.2 grains or the 1.8 grams weighs 27.7 grains

[LAGS]

Today I finished with repressing some of my low density Toilet Paper Charcoal powder.
It was only 78 to 100 grains density.
But after I reground it and re pressed it,
It produced powder that was 87% density.
1CC of this powder weighed 13.0 grains.
Compared to the 1 CC of Goex at 15 gr
That comes out to 86.66 % comparison.
This is the highest percentage I have made go far with the TP charcoal powder.

[2TM101]

Isn’t that not Black Powder ? Does it have to compare to BP in weight and volume ?

Probably be more fair to compare it with Pyrodex, which is the same power by volume as BP but weight is significantly less.

By Volume, its just as good as Goex. I was surprised it performed like that with less than half the actual weight.

[DoubleBuck]

One CC, or 1 ML of Distilled Water weighs 1 gram or 15.4324 grains. Measures are calculated on this.
1.7 Grams Per CC is what Commercial powders are compressed to. At least that is what I've read they use as a density number. At the block or puck, as we use. What your schedule is saying is that 3fff powder should weigh about 1 gram per CC. If you made a puck of exactly 1 CC, compressed to 1.7 grams, that is what it would weigh, before processing. Your 1 cc scoop would weigh 1.7 grams.
Broken up and processed, the powder gains volume. 3fff powder gains, according to your scoop, 1.7 times the puck's original volume. So, now; one CC of volume weighs about 1 gram instead of 1.7 grams.
2ff Powder will be a bit heavier, because the grain sizes did not gain as much volume as the 3fff powder. If the scoop is calculated on 3fff powder; the same scoop on 2ff powder will throw a heavier weight. Not a lot, but some.
In my last experience, I made 1.707 Gram per CC density pucks, and my 3fff powder came in at 98.4 grains per 100 grain measure. Tapped when loading the measure, it was up to 103.28 grains per 100 grain measure.
Your question was where does the 1.7, or 1.8 grams per CC come into play? The answer is... only at the puck. LOADED density, which most people use, is the final word. If your powder is compressed to factory density at the puck, the loaded density will be very close, as well.
The reason I check puck density is to know if I am close to that commercial density, before I process the powder. If it is not dense enough, I press more into the remaining pucks.
This picture is of vials I use, when shooting. I pre weigh each charge and put them in these vials. They are calculated the same as a measure. On 1 to 5 grams (CC, or ML) of pure water. On the right is 60 grains weighed, of 3fff powder, which is 1.6 density at the puck. The powder is about 96% of measure by volume. On the left is 60 weighed grains of fines, from that same powder.

[LAGS]

Thank you,
So if I compact Goex into a solid CC then it should weigh about 26.2 grains or 1.7 grams.

[DoubleBuck]

LAGS;
Absolutely. If it is different, then they used a different density of powder. And, at times they do. That is why they combine more than one block (puck) of powder in each run of powder. So the average will be 1 gram per CC. Grain sizes percentage and polishing will affect the exact weight of a given block of powder, at the measure. They combine them to get closer to averages that are consistent.

[LAGS]

That operation seems like it is the way to check on true Maximum density.
But for the average guy making powder,
Just weighing there powder compared to the volume that comes out of a 100 grain powder measure will get you plenty of information to compare the weight of your powder to factory powder.

[DoubleBuck]

LAGS;
You're right. I only check puck density, to know if I'm close to the Commercial powder. If a person is satisfied with the loaded density of the powder, or can adjust for the difference, it may not be important to them. I use it to see how powders I have made compare to each other and what processes I can use to gain that density.
Two or three of my powders have got that high density. Toilet paper fell short and the max density at the puck I attained was 1.597. I plan to cook another batch as brown as milling will allow, and see if I can bring that number up. If so, I think it definitely will be viable powder.
Speaking of Toilet Paper Powder; I just pulled out the can of my first batch of Cottonelle Super Strong 3fff; 1.597 puck density powder to check it. It was processed and canned on 12-21-2023. The grains are still holding up very well and it had no clumps or signs of moisture. It is aging very well.
I went ahead and pulled out the 50 grain measure. Tapped while filling with a kitchen butter knife and leveled off with the back of the blade, 5 loads measured 45.2; 46.2; 45.1; 46.1; and 45.7 grains. For a combined average of 45.66 grains, or 91.32% of the 50 grains of the measure.

[LAGS]

The density on my TP charcoal powder is down in the 70’s
But when I make the next batches , I will pay more attention to how long I leave the die in my press.
The moisture content was not too much.
So I will try leaving the pucks under pressure so they dry out more and don’t loose compression.
But since the TP charcoal weighs 1/2 what my other charcoals do, I expected the powders to weigh a little less.

[indian joe]

For what it's worth, most all my pucks that have been compressed the first time are between 1.7 and 1.8 g/cc. When I re-puck my fines, they usually are between 1.8 and 1.9 g/cc.
This is dry density.. This is in the puck stage. After grinding the ground powder (2F compared to 2F) will be 92 to 93% the weight of Goex for the same volume. Now with that said, I am getting about the same velocity, volume to volume. as Goex. Same rifle, ball, patch and measure. The only thing different is the powder.

I dont bother with test weighing at the pressed puck stage (dont believe I would get a useful number the way I go at things) I compare my finished powder to Goex and am right at the same place, 92 - 93% density and same velocity per volume
However - there is a difference in the density of Wano (more dense and less velocity per weight from my testing) - also am told that Swiss is more dense than Goex - am not able to test that story.

[indian joe]

That operation seems like it is the way to check on true Maximum density.
But for the average guy making powder,
Just weighing there powder compared to the volume that comes out of a 100 grain powder measure will get you plenty of information to compare the weight of your powder to factory powder.

I never wanted to argue with fellers that are having a lot of fun testing stuff - but to me the puck measure always seemed like a pointless excercise - I have some old history in testing procedure and the accompanying statistics (wool testing for sale by specification) - eliminating variables and poor sampling technique was super important - I concluded my puck making process was not up to the mark for measuring and testing. Guess the process (seat of the pants) test the result - result has been reasonably consistent so process is acceptable (always room for improvement )

[dtknowles]

I could see where puck density testing would be valuable. There is probably a point where more ram pressure does not increase density so no point in stressing things with higher ram loads. If the puck density is low then more work on pressing process might be useful. Why wait until you have ground it up to find out you did not press it hard enough. That said it seems people press it as hard as their equipment allows so you get what you get.
Tim

[indian joe]

I could see where puck density testing would be valuable. There is probably a point where more ram pressure does not increase density so no point in stressing things with higher ram loads. If the puck density is low then more work on pressing process might be useful. Why wait until you have ground it up to find out you did not press it hard enough. That said it seems people press it as hard as their equipment allows so you get what you get.
Tim

last sentence ........................

well ? might be able to do a little better by timing press time - leaning on the jack handle longer ?
buy a new truck jack cuz my old one bleeds down a bit .......................

I couldnt see the point FOR ME
also dont see the point in shooting pucked powder in front loaders FOR ME -----------screened is so much easier to make and works a treat in them ---maybe I lucked onto a good process for that? other guys dont seem to see the benefits

none of which matters - there a mob of blokes here making quality product for a couple bucks a pound, they are self sufficient in a difficult to source critical component and having fun doing it --that all matters

[2TM101]

There a mob of blokes here making quality product for a couple bucks a pound, they are self sufficient in a difficult to source critical component and having fun doing it --that all matters

At this point I classify my homemade powders as Grade A, B or C

Grade A is where I do all the work to puck Black Powder twice and carefully grade it into exact sizes. Cartridge guns and revolvers need grade A to work (except my Walker or 45-70)

Grade B is screened BP, Crimson or manganese powder, at least until the Manganese formula is refined further, at which point i may call it A. Could also be Black Powder with an alternate Charcoal source that turned out to be ineffective.

Grade C is Golden powder or something like Jake's Lampblack powder. I think when I finally make charcoal out of Amazon boxes it will most likely be grade C. But could be better.

Manganese powder may be grade A if its pucked, not enough experience with that yet. Don't know where Starch powder fits in yet either.

I have made a lot of grade B powders that are just fine for my single shot rifle or pistols. At this point I have so much of this stuff I won't be making any more this year. Anything that turns out to be grade C is usable, but I don't make it again.

As you say, making this stuff has turned out to be far more fun than actually using it. To the point where I really need a friend with a canon.

[HamGunner]

As you say, making this stuff has turned out to be far more fun than actually using it. To the point where I really need a friend with a canon.

In my case, I think that is a very correct statement as well. Although I think I have reached the point now to where I am very happy with my process and the results so I will perhaps start using my stash up a bit faster than I had been making it now.

I have never calculated my density at the puck, but have always done so after the screening and drying by comparing to some old Goex that was made prior to Goex's last two fires and resulting temporary shut downs. Through all my experimenting and improving of my process, I have ended up right at 93-94% density of Goex compared by weight of same volume. Velocity is now slightly faster than Goex with similar weight. Close enough now that I am just using the normal BP measures in my loads and getting almost the same results as Goex.

I might try polishing my powder a bit more to see if I can improve it further, but for the most part, I am certainly happy with what I am getting right now.

Tomorrow the US Mail should be delivering me a beautiful early safe queen, low digit four serial # .45 cal. TC Hawkins style flinter made back around 1971-1972. It was made back when Thompson Center was still using the more beautifully grained walnut wood and putting extra polishing on the steel and brass. It's a beauty. Can't wait to get her filthy.

While waiting for this new arrival, I have already received my order from Track of the Wolf for extra black English flints, cleaning accessories, a Delrin ram rod, a leather bag for the ball, etc. From Flea-bay, I received a new, already reworked to fit Lyman frizzen should I need one, and I have also made up some pre-lubed patches of various sizes to try out and even cast up some .445 ball from a nice used Ideal single cavity mold that I bought here on Swapp'n & Sell'n. Going to fill the "holler" with smoke soon, so might be using my BP up a bit faster.

Will probably take my lawn chair and umbrella and cup of coffee or cold beer and camp out by the mail box in the morning.