My homemade black powder

[owejia]

I own a Frankford Arsenal Rotary Tumbler (FART) and I believe that it is the smaller model. It seems that I read on this thread that it is not suitable for ball milling BP but I forgot the reason why? Can someone enlighten me please?

I made a pvc drum to fit inside my rubber lined Frankford arsenal tumbler. Three inch sch 40 p.vc pipe 15 1/4" lg, use 3" plastic test caps to seal ends of pvc pipe. Turn the screw on caps backwards [ the caps will protrude outside of the tumbler body instead of inside] and use a round 1/8 " silicone table protector that you sit a glass on to give some adjustment when tightening the caps down. Have only tumbled my ball media to test it but seems to work fine. Am looking for a used tread mill with adjustable speed control to make a bigger volume tumbler. Using sp 45 acp brass filled with hard lead now but will probably try small non magnetic ss bar stock cut in short pieces or maybe brass round stock for my new mill media in my larger tread mill ball mill. Thinking 6" sch 40 pvc pipe will work.

[HWooldridge]

Any materials that make contact with each other during tumbling will slough some level of residue from the softer one(s) - can it be measured and is it worth worrying about?

I tumble inside black rubber drums with my bronze triangle media but there isn't any way I could see that dust in the finished black powder. The finished product shoots well and doesn't leave any unusual residue in the barrel so I'm satisfied. YMMV...

[2TM101]

I tumble inside black rubber drums with my bronze triangle media but there isn't any way I could see that dust in the finished black powder. The finished product shoots well and doesn't leave any unusual residue in the barrel so I'm satisfied. YMMV...

That National Geographic Child's toy rock tumbler I got is a rubber drum. Works fine, though I use mine for cleaning small (100-150) amounts of black powder cartridges and not powder making. I would not hesitate to use it for powder if I needed to but I have two of the smaller ones and can make powder much faster than I can use it already. I need a friend with a Cannon.

I do use Bronze spheres of varying size to make powder. I figure it was a one time expense, they aren't wearing out like lead ones will.

[Pellethuntr]

Any reason not to use ceramic as in the tumbler?

[HWooldridge]

Any reason not to use ceramic as in the tumbler?

There is a common belief that sparking may occur with ceramic media - may or may not be an issue but why take the risk?

[Sandro_ventania]

I've never seen it from my rubber drums that have made 25 pounds of powder, but Ok.

Just make it in another pot and compare it with the one you make, to know the difference. Are you satisfied with your powder, that's really good! But maybe another pot will make it even better.

[Sandro_ventania]

question for the crew
(my plan for scrap pump rod has imploded it turns out to be bronze pump shaft bearings - take as much as you want mate - but hard work cutting it tdon to suitable chunks - same bloke has a drum half full of stainless steel bolts )
question (dumb question) is there a danger of sparking in the mill drum using stainless steel ?????
thanks

I think it's worth it. Take what you need, take it home and cut it a little at a time. When you least expect it, you will have had enough. Don't take risks with stainless steel.

[Brimstone]

The potential danger in 3 component milling with any metallic media is two fold.
First, how far the shot is thrown through the drum. If you build a ball mill 6 feet in diameter and fill it with 3" diameter lead shot and try to mill black powder, it will explode. People tried. One story being of a French ball mill of some large production size disassembling itself.

If the shot is so large and the distance thrown so great, it gains so much momentum that even hard lead will impact each other with enough energy to ignite powder. Don't believe me? Go to your mancave, grab 2 billiards balls and head to your office for a sheet of typing paper. Wrap one ball in paper and then smack the two together with moderate force. Take a look at the burned blasted out hole you've left in the paper. Now imagine black powder. Boom.

Ball milling is relatively safe on our scale because a 3-12" diameter drum with 1/4 - 1" shot will not allow media of any sort to gain the momentum to ignite black powder on impact.
I personally wouldn't try 1" diameter of any media in a 12" drum, rather, the larger the drum diameter, the smaller the shot I would use to reduce chances of ignition.


Second and most important issue is hardened shot. Quench hardened shot like glass or steel ball bearings have the potential to shatter as they're under force from quenching. It is why when they fail, they generate sparks regardless of how hard or soft the failure initiating impact was.

It is in this latter fact we're most worried for constant impacts no matter how gentle can potentially induce a failure in quenched hardened glass or steel shot. Hence why we don't use glass or hardened ball bearings.
Unhardened 300 series stainless steel in this case isn't anymore likely to spark or shatter than lead.

A number of reputable pyros use unhardened 304 stainless steel shot in their ball mills, I do too.
It is EXPENSIVE. A Rebel 17 drum worth of unhardened stainless will set you back some $400.
Anyone considering using 300 series stainless should test it prior to use. Spot checking the lots for shatter resistance and every ball magnet tested to rule out any possibility of hardened chrome shot having made its way into your media. I went through testing knowing the potential of hardened chrome steel being made alongside 304 stainless shot could result in a mixup. I took safety measures.

As to stainless hardware bolts, you need to know the type and how it was manufactured. I use very specific unhardened 304 stainless shot. Definitely a case of carefully impact test the stainless on an anvil with PPE on as well as magnet test it.

I still recommend a super hard lead alloy. I have 2,000 50 caliber shot that is as hard as bronze. Mystery alloy. It's still heavy though. Bogs down my 1hp drive.

[DoubleBuck]

Brimstone;
Good answer! Thank you!
A couple of years ago, a friend told me that you could set black powder off, hitting it with a hammer. I thought it would, as well.
We took about a gram sized puck piece and laid it on a steel plate I have, that is four inches thick. I hit it hard with a Monster Maul, which is flat on the back side and weighs about 12-15 pounds. I hit it about three times and we decided it was not going to go off with that.
Not saying it won't, but did not. I know the Military has handling restrictions and precautions for impact.
I have asked the question on this thread before; if anyone has tried shooting a container of Black, with a rifle. Old western movies say it will work every time. That also did not work for me. Don't know if anyone has tried it, or not. A 30.06 with a 180 grain bullet, I would have thought would do it. It did not, for me. I also shot three sticks of dynamite about 40 years ago. They did not either. Again, not saying they won't. Just saying it did not, for me.
I have seen dynamite set of with a .22, two times. Maybe bigger is not better.

[ulav8r]

Dad had a neighbor\friend who told of us of someone who shot some dynamite that was sweating. It exploded, would not have been a big deal but they had placed it against as bluff that directed the blast back toward the shooter. No injury but it shook him up.

[Nobade]

Today I learned that you need to keep your ball mill level. The powder kept caking up in one end of the jar, no matter which way I pointed it. Then it occurred to me to put a level on it. I had no idea the floor of the shed it's in was so crooked! I put a 2x4 under the low side to shim it up and it is running a lot better now. Just something to keep in mind...

[Swineherd]

Copper tubing, cut to short lengths, flattened at each end and filled with lead in the middle. Brass bearings are an unnecessary expense.

Or, large caliber copper plated bullets.

[indian joe]

Copper tubing, cut to short lengths, flattened at each end and filled with lead in the middle. Brass bearings are an unnecessary expense.

Or, large caliber copper plated bullets.

bronze bore column bearings ----take as much as you like ---no charge
cutting bronze bearing material is never fun but free stuff always comes with a hidden cost
try one tomorrow

the stainless bolts would be much easier for me to hack up into useable pieces

scrap copper pipe filled with lead might still end up my best choice

[Trapper-Jack]

It was a nice spring day here today and I took advantage of it to test some of my powder against Goex by volume. Most all of my shooting is "loading out of the bag" so a scale isn't an option. I set my brass adjustable powder measure to 65 grains and left it unchanged for the duration. All shots were out of a flintlock Great Plains 50 caliber. All the powder was made with the 75/15/10 blend. A five shot string of 65 grains of measured Goex yielded an average of 1357 fps. My willow charcoal powder averaged 1352.4 fps and the Quaking Aspen averaged 1355.6 and the Juniper averaged 1323.6. The Juniper is what surprised me as it is the closest to Goex in weight, almost identical where my willow and quakie is about 92 - 93% the weight of Goex per the same volume. The standard deviations for these strings ran Goex - 8, Willow - 10, Quakie - 22 and Juniper - 19. I'm beginning to think that while the density is important in corned powder, it isn't the whole story. I'm thinking that the different charcoal has a different horsepower content that should be taken into account.

[dtknowles]

Range scrap 45 acp FMJ's and TMJ or even just plated if they did not mushroom. Dig them out of the berm for free.

Tim

[indian joe]

It was a nice spring day here today and I took advantage of it to test some of my powder against Goex by volume. Most all of my shooting is "loading out of the bag" so a scale isn't an option. I set my brass adjustable powder measure to 65 grains and left it unchanged for the duration. All shots were out of a flintlock Great Plains 50 caliber. All the powder was made with the 75/15/10 blend. A five shot string of 65 grains of measured Goex yielded an average of 1357 fps. My willow charcoal powder averaged 1352.4 fps and the Quaking Aspen averaged 1355.6 and the Juniper averaged 1323.6. The Juniper is what surprised me as it is the closest to Goex in weight, almost identical where my willow and quakie is about 92 - 93% the weight of Goex per the same volume. The standard deviations for these strings ran Goex - 8, Willow - 10, Quakie - 22 and Juniper - 19. I'm beginning to think that while the density is important in corned powder, it isn't the whole story. I'm thinking that the different charcoal has a different horsepower content that should be taken into account.

same here I think

I have done a fair amount of testing with my 45/75

willow FFg 69 grains and a .045 poly wad with a 330 grain have cracked 1500 FPS

the weight is a few grains down on commercial and NO have not done a side by side comparison but went home happy

Venturinos book has a 45/70 load 330grain pill over 72 grains FFG Goex and 1445 FPS

Incidentally the 45/75 formed from 348 brass has a whisker LESS capacity (1 grain) than the thinner walled 45/70 cases --I have checked this many times --identical boolit seated same depth in both

[DoubleBuck]

Trapper-Jack;
Those numbers are impressive. Especially where the totals are so close in average. The Juniper is surprising. I knew it is so light, when dry and it burns hotter than blazes. But, it appears it makes pretty dandy powder as well. Different charcoals are definitely different in strength and it looks like you have three that are really close.
I test with 60 grains, and more recently, with 75 grains and I have seldom had SD's as close as yours. Something I'm trying to deal with. I usually shoot 10-20 shots, to average, so that may be some of my deviations being larger.
I almost went out to burn some powder today, myself. Decided I had too many 'honey do's'. Soon though.
Thanks for the report and congratulations, with your powder! It sounds like you have it going on!
ETA; Questions. Were any of the powders more clean or dirty than the others? And what grain size did you use? The reason I ask is, if your Juniper was more dense than the other two, you might get away with a slightly smaller grain size and boost it's velocity.

[PianoManA440]

Hello yall. Been reading this thread for years. Great info.
I see the density thing still bugging some of you too. Ive been doing some testing and believe i may have a solution. I will try to keep it to the point .

[PianoManA440]

So i started pressing my powder to 1.7g/cc by measuring the volume of my die,multiply by 1.7 and theres how many grams should fit. Once dry ran thru coffee burr grinder, screened etc..
100 grain volumetric charge weighed 60 grains. Thinking thats wrong my math must be wrong i upped my grams of meal from 62 to 80. Took everything my press has got. Can only add 1% water. Any more and it weeps out around die. Let dry. Coffee grinder, screens, etc....
100 grain volumetric charge weighed 70 grains. And breaking these pucks up sucks. So hard.
Then someone posted Swiss pdf. Loved it. I see they tumble their grains while wet. No letting pucks dry. Also stated that the moisture content was 8%. So back to 1.7g/cc i went which for my powder die is 62 grams. Added 8% water and pressed. So much easier!! Can break up by hand. But not falling apart knto useless fines. So screened, thru in ball mill minus milling media. 12hrs later poured out and let dry.
100 grain volumetric charge weighed 85 grains.
Looking under microscope my grains very similar to swiss photo. Not as good glaze though. I did see small particles on grain so into mill again with pillow ticking strips. Checked every 4 hrs till scraps stopped turning black.each time i would shake dust off. 12hrs later under microscope nice shiny grains, but surface looks like golf ball. Can clearly see pores on grains. Not as good of glaze as swiss but definatly glazed.
100 grain volumetric charge weighs 91 grains.

[PianoManA440]

I have tried various combinations of milling time while wet to round grains better but no improvement after 12hrs. Same with the pjlliow ticking scraps. 91 grains is as far as i can get. Grains are black just like swiss. Not that grayish look my rock hard puck powder had. Also grains once dried are hard. No, a lot didnt turn to fines. About 30grams went thru my 50mesh from a 240gram batch. I processed 240grams of pucks in 15 minutes. So way easier doing while wet.