My homemade black powder

[StevenDJ]

LAGS,

Some antiques older than (can't recall the year) don't need to be registered, unless you plan on using them for anything other than a wall hanger. All firearms regardless of the propellant, including air rifles need to be registered. There are some state laws that differ regarding paintball guns. Some states allow crossbows and slingshots (DIY is a grey zone). In other states they are prohibited. I have not seen any of the Traditions firearms for sale, but I really only look to the second hand market.

Maybe because I am used to the laws here, but I think we have a good balance. Almost everyone over the age of 18 can access a firearms licence for a variety of reasons including target shooting, hunting, pest control, primary production etc. Accessing semi automatic weapons requires employment in a suitable industry (eg. aerial culling of feral animals). Just about nobody can access fully automatic weapons. Owning a pistol would require you to be part of a target/sporting club. 99.9% (that's a made up statistic!) of Australians would not consider having a gun for self defence. I suggest that most Australians know that criminals access illegal guns, but most people feel safe from this problem, as criminals largely target other criminals. If a police officer is shot in the line of duty, it make BIG news. It would only happen a couple of times each year.

Laws differ between states. I am sure my fellow countrymen in Western Australia don't feel the same. They have some really strict laws that have recently been enacted.

Steve

[LAGS]

Thanks for the info.
It helps us understand what restrictions you have that limit your sports.

[dtknowles]

LAGS,
.......Laws differ between states. I am sure my fellow countrymen in Western Australia don't feel the same. They have some really strict laws that have recently been enacted.

Steve

Talking strict laws, I suggest caution regarding:

"Hmmm, I don't think I should be selling this stuff". I am happy to give a bit away though as I need the help from people like her.

I the U.S. giving is the same as selling regarding a lot of things. Guns, Reloaded Ammo, Explosives, Drugs; if selling requires a license, then giving it away does too.

I bet the same applies there. That said, sharing a gun, powder or reloads for use while you are present, probably not going to get someone in trouble. Someone saying "hey I got this pound of powder from so and so, they made it themselves." I can't say but if said to the wrong person, well, who knows.

[LAGS]

I totally understand about the rules in different states.
I am originally from California.
The flip flopping gun laws is why I moved to Arizona.
You probably can sell her the separate chemicals , and teach her how to make her own BP.

[indian joe]

Over in Australia,
Are BP guns required to be registered as firearms.
If so, that may be the reason they don't import kits because they lack registration till they are built.
But do they Import things like the Traditions rifles and pistols ?

Lags might find this interesting
first a couple of stats we are 23? million total and the land mass is roughly equivalant to the continental USA
however 86% are urbanites and 83% live within 50 km of the coast - so if you sliced 50 km (30miles) off the east coast from Cairns in the north to a little past Melbourne 3/4 of our population is gone!!

I started shooting muzzleloaders in 1989 CVA's were all over the place and kits were common - they were cheap and they worked - I have owned maybe more than a dozen CVA's and all of them were 87 serial number guns (1987make) we had one major importer and I used to joke he went to Spain and bought a couple container loads of factory seconds - every one I have had had something wrong - from bodgy screw threads into the muzzle (my best gun I would pay serious money to get that one back but the guy wont sell) to minor parts missing from kits - to a boogered up crown job (still got that one - its a junker but my go to club gun) all of em something wrong - but fixable and when they fixed - as good as a Getz (pun intended).
During the 90's, we had not encountered registration and there were a couple of savvy guys importing parts from the US so if you line up even today in a flintlock match you will see some darn fine hand built longrifles - from Belgian bits to geen mountain barrels at the cheaper end - on to swamped Getz barrels and anybody else of "name" - L&R locks - Siler, Davis triggers -- etc it got harder into the new century and those guys got older - the sport numbers wise is declining - we have had a good Italian importer Uberti - Pedersoli - most of the business would have been cartridge guns but always had a few front loaders for sale. They are decent quality but I dont particularly like the look of them (thats personal I detest the Roman nose stock)

We are allowed to own (in my state NSW) an antique - pre 1900 manufacture so long as ammunition is not commercially available - someplace on earth - so its really difficult to qualify any kind of cartridge gun - even your antique ML - its a felony to take it down and shoot it.

The rules like anywhere dont make sense, a 22rf is category one - but so is a 12 gauge shotgun
Blackpowder rifles are category two same as any centerfire - I dont have a smoothbore registerded - by rights they should be classed as shotgun but would have to check that (I think cat two) Blackpowder pistols same as centrefire pistol but we dont get the "high calibre" restriction so a walker colt or a 58 cal horse pistol is ok but we need special dispensation to shoot a 45colt (anything cartridge above .375)
Different states vary Queensland was always the least restrictive West Australia is our version of Commiefornia
pump action shotguns are banned sinply because some fool trying to make the case for retaining semiauto shotguns said to a reporter "anyway its stupid because you can shoot a pump action just as fast as an auto and they hold more shots" - I watched that on the friday night news and - you freaking idiot!! sure enough monday morning John Howard announced pump actions were banned.

In Victoria for many years replica BP pistols were regarded as imitations (same as a kids capgun) anybody with the cash could buy one and plenty seeped across the border(s) too - then one day at a shoot some galoot that could shoot (and had his guns tuned nice) lined up in front of a reporter from a local paper and blew an old box stump to smithereens with two "replica" dragoons, 12 shots in quick succession, no misfires, I bet a pretty impressive demo ---- guess what happened - while ever we have idiots like these blokes representing our cause we have a problem.

John Howard banned "high calibre" handguns - they were strictly regulated anyway only allowed to own and shoot at a organised pistol club - someone said he watched a Dirty Harry movie influenced that decision ----he had a religious zealot approach to firearms - turns out when he was a kid his alko father came home one night and threatened his mother with a 22 from behind the kitchen door (the 22 common enough in many suburban homes at the time)

We have never been lawfully allowed to use deadly force in self defense so the mentality for that just is not part of us

I had a minor encounter with a local cop in Washington state - a simple mistake on my part, night driving, a tad tired, radio on, he cruised past me with yellow lights flashing and I saw the police sign on his car, followed the car off into the grass, that guy came out at 15 yards with his gun half drawn and ready to go, he picked up on the accent soon as I spoke and see him relax a bit but he never let go of that shooter until I headed back onto the road.

I was pulled up in rural Queensland similar time of night, listening to cowboy music, local cop out filling his quota, already had one bloke stopped, he flagged me down, moseyed over to the drivers window with his flashlight half down and notebook in hand - talked my way past any plan he had and off I went - BUT no thought in this blokes head that I was out to do him harm ------so there is an upside (small tho it is)

well thats a bit of a ramble - think we might have had an inch of rain while I typed -

[shaman]

Shaman;
I think the article was very good. Then, I spent an hour checking out your cool site, pictures and articles, etc. Good luck with your adventures! It looks like you live in an area teeming with wildlife and a hunting paradise. I enjoyed your link very much!

Thanks. Sorry I missed this earlier, I was down at deer camp.

A buddy of mine ended up nailing the #2 camp record this year, but I've barely seen a deer. My one son has not seen anything either. We finally pulled out early.

The one thing we saw in profuseion was turkey-- biggest flocks we've seen in a decade or more.

[nanuk]

SHOOTING RESULTS ! The Cedar chips came from bagged landscape chips. Who knows when the Balsa was harvested, all other woods were harvested locally this spring, when the sap was up, debarked and dried. All charring was done in a one gallon paint can with a gentle heat source. The internal can temperature was held at 600 deg F, with a max temp of 640 deg F. The resulting charcoal was ground in a hand crank burr mill. The KNO3 was dried before weighing. All BP batches were 1/2 pound, 75-15-10, ball milled, moistened with 50/50 alcohol/water, and pucked under a gauged hydraulic press at 7 ton. Dried, crushed, and screened, the 2f-3f blend was ready to shoot.
The rifle is a 45 cal T/C Seneca, 26 1/2" from muzzle to breech plug, shooting a 240 grain T/C Maxi-Ball over a weighed 70 grains of BP, over a PACT model XP Chronograph. Velocity is a 5 shot average, with very low extreme spread. Of no surprise, the Balsa was the fastest.
Balsa 1572 fps
White Pine 1555
Box Elder 1512
Cedar 1501
Buck thorn 1501
Sumac 1498
Willow 1468
Cottonwood 1465
GOEX 3fg 1461
Red Elderberry 1450
GOEX 2fg 1387

All of these are acceptable, no bad ones, and I will be happy to forever use White Pine, as I have tens of thousands of such trees. After all of the shooting, I have a recoil headache.
John

Speed is great, but I'm more concerned about consistency and clean shooting.
I think we can get hung up on speed for speed's sake, and lose sight of why Great powder is great powder.

....
It looks to me that the powders are blended rather than ground to a specific consistent granule size.
Is this what you all are finding as well and do you think we are a bit too concerned about our granule consistency in our home made powder?
Could we simply tune our powder's performance by adjusting a ratio of grinds?.....

I think of it this way, take a box, and fill it with round balls, it'll weigh X amount
now pour out those balls, and fill it with round balls that are twice as large, it'll weigh about the same
now, all those spaces you created, fill them with the smaller balls....

see where I'm going here? Blended sizes increases your loose pour density, if the smaller particles help fill the voids caused by the bigger particles

[indian joe]

Speed is great, but I'm more concerned about consistency and clean shooting.
I think we can get hung up on speed for speed's sake, and lose sight of why Great powder is great powder.



I think of it this way, take a box, and fill it with round balls, it'll weigh X amount
now pour out those balls, and fill it with round balls that are twice as large, it'll weigh about the same
now, all those spaces you created, fill them with the smaller balls....

see where I'm going here? Blended sizes increases your loose pour density, if the smaller particles help fill the voids caused by the bigger particles

Put the load over the chronograph --IF -- we get equal low extreme spread as the proper screened stuff --then maybe --BUT --blended size granules in a container tend to settle / separate over time so you will get the coarser stuff at the start and as you use it the grain size will be smaller towards the bottom of the can -- that bothers me and screening properly is easy.

secondly (this is entirely gut feeling) I think better ignition of coarser powders when you have those voids for the initial flame to envelope the powder grains (one day some genious of technology will put a slow motion camera inside a charge and tell me this is wrong - be fun to watch it )

[nanuk]

Put the load over the chronograph --IF -- we get equal low extreme spread as the proper screened stuff --then maybe --BUT --blended size granules in a container tend to settle / separate over time so you will get the coarser stuff at the start and as you use it the grain size will be smaller towards the bottom of the can -- that bothers me and screening properly is easy.

secondly (this is entirely gut feeling) I think better ignition of coarser powders when you have those voids for the initial flame to envelope the powder grains (one day some genious of technology will put a slow motion camera inside a charge and tell me this is wrong - be fun to watch it )

I've not noticed a lot of settling for commercial powder that has lots of different sizes, but then again, I don't really look for it, and have very limited access to commercial anyways

I was just thinking out loud about density, and how one could get MORE powder in a case. We could mix/blend then vibrate the cases to get it to all settle into a higher density charge, then top off with fines and vibrate the case til they all settle, and that should give the highest density without needed to create a solid dense plug. (But that is an interesting option also....)

as for porosity for flame passage... IS it really a concern?
Pellets seem to burn just fine as a solid. And as some have posted, pulled ammo has been found to be a solid plug

Now, I think the consensus is larger grains = slower burn rates
BUT to what degree?
and how does that jive with your comment about "better ignition of coarser powders"

It confuses me to think about modern naval guns using BP when there is ample S L O W smokeless available and cost is certainly no object for a Navy
and what about the pellets?

I think someone in this thread has shown us that weight/weight, larger grains produce slower velocities, but I can't find the specifics

There has to be more to it, and here I'm thinking internal ballistics... gas production.
Does BP of same weight produce more gas than smokeless of same weight? (Albeit at a lower pressure)
From what I have been reading, BP loads are usually around 75% of the velocity of Spec smokeless loads, with pressures well under 1/2

So, what I'd like to try if I get my ducks in a row, is to ram some cartridges and test them out
I'm thinking of two ways to try:
1) put a plug in the primer pocket, and ram the case full
2) put a rod (nail??) that just fits the primer vent, ram, then pull the rod, leaving a short narrow cavity for flame

I don't have the resources to test all this out at the moment, but it is surely on my list of things to do before I am past my "Best Before" date

Too many things rolling around in my head. I think I need a nap!

ETA:
none of this has anything to do with clean burning.
IF I could produce a powder that allowed me to shoot as many as I wanted without servicing the bore, THAT would be a great success. IF there was increased velocity, that would be a bonus.
I think even if I only got 75% of, say, GOEX 2Fg, but it was extremely clean, I would be ecstatic.
After all, many here are struggling to get 5% increase.
I ask, "Is that 5% really that important to you?"
Or would you be happier with 95% of Swiss, and a perfectly clean bore?

[tobywan45]

Or would you be happier with 95% of Swiss, and a perfectly clean bore
And accurate
This would make me aesthetic

Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk

[indian joe]

Or would you be happier with 95% of Swiss, and a perfectly clean bore
And accurate
This would make me aesthetic

Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk

everybody has a different take
I am after consistent and clean
got it early on with hybrid willow charcoal
velocity a tad ahead of old Goex - less than Swiss I would guess - heaps better then Wano (schuetzen)
while I like making the stuff I would much rather shoot or build a gun or two

[DoubleBuck]

There is a reason the Military use small amounts of Black Powder, in their charge loads. If it didn't work, especially with the handling characteristics; they wouldn't use an ounce of it.
It confuses me to think about modern naval guns using BP when there is ample S L O W smokeless available and cost is certainly no object for a Navy and what about the pellets?
Slow is not what they seek and is the opposite reason they use Black. Black Powder is somewhere in the neighborhood of three times faster 'burning' than fast burning Smokeless. It also only develops about 1/3 the pressure of some smokeless. It's called an explosive, because that's what it does. Smokeless powder is not an explosive. It is a propellant, and requires confinement to operate correctly. Black operates in spite of confinement, not because of it. Black is added to the charge to efficiently ignite the whole charge, not to increase the total pressure.
Pellets? Nobody has came close to relevant velocities, using either pellets or substitutes. Nor have they reached relevant non corrosively clean burns. Nor have they reached the accuracy of RG Black.
I ask, "Is that 5% really that important to you?" Or would you be happier with 95% of Swiss, and a perfectly clean bore?
With black Powder, over the course of 1100 years, no one has made 'perfectly clean burning powder'. And yes, that '5%' IS important to me. When I started making powder, I was happy launching a round ball at 1300 feet per second. I can now launch one at over 1600 fps, with the same weight of charge. I'll take every 1% increase I can eek out. And, I have made powder that definitely is more than 95% of Swiss. And, as clean burning.
Black Powder and clean burning is an oxy moron. However, many guys here say they can make several shots, without swabbing.
I think someone in this thread has shown us that weight/weight, larger grains produce slower velocities, but I can't find the specifics

Besides the need of quality ingredients, there are mainly two 'regulators' concerning burn rate on Black Powder. Density and grain size. The smaller the grain, the faster the burn rate; and the lower the density, the faster the burn rate. Of course, there are other things that can also affect the rate. One being rough or smooth grains and another being simply atmospheric conditions. Given the two main regulators, grain size is definitely the most significant one, in my opinion. But, the options are nearly unlimited for finding the sweet spot on anything I've had experience with. Especially in accuracy.
However, whether it's high density small grain size, or low density large grain size, I think the most significant thing I have done as a true improvement, is consistency in production. Keep it simple and try to do it the same every time. It inspires the confidence to know where the next shot is going, before you pull the trigger.
Good luck with the cartridge stuff. I know zero about it.

[Huvius]

"...This would make me aesthetic"

Now THAT is funny!
Sort of like "hey!... I resemble that remark!"

[indian joe]

There is a reason the Military use small amounts of Black Powder, in their charge loads. If it didn't work, especially with the handling characteristics; they wouldn't use an ounce of it.
It confuses me to think about modern naval guns using BP when there is ample S L O W smokeless available and cost is certainly no object for a Navy and what about the pellets?
Slow is not what they seek and is the opposite reason they use Black. Black Powder is somewhere in the neighborhood of three times faster 'burning' than fast burning Smokeless. It also only develops about 1/3 the pressure of some smokeless. It's called an explosive, because that's what it does. Smokeless powder is not an explosive. It is a propellant, and requires confinement to operate correctly. Black operates in spite of confinement, not because of it. Black is added to the charge to efficiently ignite the whole charge, not to increase the total pressure.
Pellets? Nobody has came close to relevant velocities, using either pellets or substitutes. Nor have they reached relevant non corrosively clean burns. Nor have they reached the accuracy of RG Black.
I ask, "Is that 5% really that important to you?" Or would you be happier with 95% of Swiss, and a perfectly clean bore?
With black Powder, over the course of 1100 years, no one has made 'perfectly clean burning powder'. And yes, that '5%' IS important to me. When I started making powder, I was happy launching a round ball at 1300 feet per second. I can now launch one at over 1600 fps, with the same weight of charge. I'll take every 1% increase I can eek out. And, I have made powder that definitely is more than 95% of Swiss. And, as clean burning.

Black Powder and clean burning is an oxy moron. However, many guys here say they can make several shots, without swabbing.

One of those "many" here ---with my homebrew and my loading method in my rifle -- shoot all day without swabbing --- proved the point at a major match Easter 2019 with a win in the 3 position traditional rifle - prone, sitting, and offhand at 100yards - each leg a ten shot target - shot with a CVA 54 cal Hawken, Round Ball, Cotton Drill patch, moose milk lube, 90 grains (weight) FFg screened powder, no swabbing between shots NOR between events - I parked the gun in the shade, fired a full charge fouling shot into the berm at the start of next event and went for it - --
a couple caveats 1) CVA rifling is not so deep - 8 thou" I think, so a damp moose milk patch on the ball will give you a clean bore to shoot every shot 2) I dont muck about on the line (otherwise that damp patch might cause some inconsistent results damping the powder charge) load it, march up, shoot it - usually one of the earlier finishers not the last 3) that CVA is only a 28 inch barrel but my flinter is a 40 inch 45 cal and works the same, again shallowish rifling though, I would never trade one of my decent CVA barrels for a brand new Green Mountain - just dont like the deeper rifling in a ball gun ....

I think someone in this thread has shown us that weight/weight, larger grains produce slower velocities, but I can't find the specifics
I think that has been well proven but also believe much of the difference (not all) goes away with longer barrels and heavier projectiles

Besides the need of quality ingredients, there are mainly two 'regulators' concerning burn rate on Black Powder. Density and grain size. The smaller the grain, the faster the burn rate; and the lower the density, the faster the burn rate. Of course, there are other things that can also affect the rate. One being rough or smooth grains and another being simply atmospheric conditions. Given the two main regulators, grain size is definitely the most significant one, in my opinion. But, the options are nearly unlimited for finding the sweet spot on anything I've had experience with. Especially in accuracy.
However, whether it's high density small grain size, or low density large grain size, I think the most significant thing I have done as a true improvement, is consistency in production. Keep it simple and try to do it the same every time. It inspires the confidence to know where the next shot is going, before you pull the trigger.
Good luck with the cartridge stuff. I know zero about it.

......

[HWooldridge]

I built a .45 caplock ML on a Green Mountain 1-66 barrel and shot a few 50 shot matches without cleaning the bore, this was with Goex 3F. I did have ignition problems due to fouling in the drum below the nipple, so I started pulling the cleanout screw every 10 shots and using a pick to punch a hole thru the buildup. However, the bore never had a problem with cotton twill patches and moose milk; I am also a proponent of smaller ball and thicker patch under most circumstances, and always felt the patch pushed a lot of the junk back down the barrel with each shot.

[indian joe]

I built a .45 caplock ML on a Green Mountain 1-66 barrel and shot a few 50 shot matches without cleaning the bore, this was with Goex 3F. I did have ignition problems due to fouling in the drum below the nipple, so I started pulling the cleanout screw every 10 shots and using a pick to punch a hole thru the buildup. However, the bore never had a problem with cotton twill patches and moose milk; I am also a proponent of smaller ball and thicker patch under most circumstances, and always felt the patch pushed a lot of the junk back down the barrel with each shot.

lots of them came downunder, probably 90% of the homebuilds, well made and accurate, I had one in 50 cal flinter - just found it not as easy to load for as the CVA - actually traded the CVA pennslyvania away in a complicated deal that ended with the Green mountain gun - been regretting that whole deal ever since - the Green Mountain flinter is long gone (and easily forgotten) the CVA sits in the back of a safe - the bloke hardly shoots it - does no good with flinters - will not consider selling it back to me ........

[Swineherd]

The more coarse the grind, the more density the charge per volume. Maximum density per volume is achieved by using a single, cylindrical grain.

Probably run into some ignition problems with that strategy though.

[indian joe]

The more coarse the grind, the more density the charge per volume. Maximum density per volume is achieved by using a single, cylindrical grain.
.

Thats a theory that tends to not be much noticeable at the practical level
maybe 1% difference FFFg to FFg - I get as much variation (or more) - shows up in how I manage the measure - tap it two times or five or whatever

[nanuk]

Thats a theory that tends to not be much noticeable at the practical level
maybe 1% difference FFFg to FFg - I get as much variation (or more) - shows up in how I manage the measure - tap it two times or five or whatever

Indian Joe, do you have a tutorial you could point me to on how you make yours?

I am interested in screened and corned.... What ever burns the cleanest with modest velocity.

my 45/70 has a short barrel, and I'm only after very low velocity/heavy boolit hunting at close range.
my muzzleloaders (all inlines) are too fast a twist for RB, but a flintlock with a RB twist is in my near future, I think.

[nanuk]

There is a reason the Military use small amounts of Black Powder, in their charge loads. If it didn't work, especially with the handling characteristics; they wouldn't use an ounce of it.
It confuses me to think about modern naval guns using BP when there is ample S L O W smokeless available and cost is certainly no object for a Navy and what about the pellets?
Slow is not what they seek and is the opposite reason they use Black. Black Powder is somewhere in the neighborhood of three times faster 'burning' than fast burning Smokeless. It also only develops about 1/3 the pressure of some smokeless. It's called an explosive, because that's what it does. Smokeless powder is not an explosive. It is a propellant, and requires confinement to operate correctly. Black operates in spite of confinement, not because of it. Black is added to the charge to efficiently ignite the whole charge, not to increase the total pressure.

I thought the navy big guns were powered with 100% BP?

and when I said slow, I meant in the big guns, a fast pressure buildup would be far more dangerous than a slower pressure buildup... so I just assumed.... I guess that was where I went astray