Maximum speed with Black powder.

[Sandro_ventania]

I searched and couldn't find an answer. Does anyone know what the maximum speed can be achieved using Black powder? Regardless of caliber and size of the load. I've heard it doesn't go above 2,000fps, but I've heard of up to 3,000fps. Does anyone have any information?

[HumptyDumpty]

I searched and couldn't find an answer. Does anyone know what the maximum speed can be achieved using Black powder? Regardless of caliber and size of the load. I've heard it doesn't go above 2,000fps, but I've heard of up to 3,000fps. Does anyone have any information?

I am not sure what the theoretical maximum would be, but I do know that there is a point of diminishing returns; I loaded a 505 gibbs with 120 grains of ffg under a 700 grain solid, and got 1415 fps. 160 grains of fffg yielded 1,426, and 170 grains only got me to 1,469. For reference, a 150 grain charge of WC860 (a 50bmg powder) propelled that same projectile to 1,964 fps. Keep in mind that the WC860 is not the correct powder for this application, and is essentially a reduced-power load, but still handily bested that massive charge of black.

[Matt85]

Just did a bit of research and see some people claiming over 2000fps.

Would be an interesting test.

[LAGS]

Isn’t the maximum speed of BP shooting related to mostly the barrel length ?
From what I have heard.
The powder burns so slow, that the in burned powder just blows out the end of the barrel.
So overloading it to most points will not increase the speed any higher.

[challenger_i]

For reference, the black powder 303 British service cartridge launched a 215gr projectile at 1850fps.

[Matt85]

Isn’t the maximum speed of BP shooting related to mostly the barrel length ?
From what I have heard.
The powder burns so slow, that I burned powder just blows out the end of the barrel.

Bore diameter and projectile weight make a big difference.

Also, keep in mind that the slow burn rate means large powder columns work harder to push themselves out the bore.

My 8-bore will happily burn 275gr of black powder in it's 24" barrels.

[HWooldridge]

It’s possible with a 40” barrel in .45 using a PRB. My old rifle would hit and exceed 2000 on 90 grs. of FFFg, but just barely. I don’t recall ever getting close to 2100.

[Abert Rim]

From the Lyman Blackpowder Handbook, page 103. On page 89, they show a .36 caliber round ball getting 2,505 out of a 43-inch barrel using 70 grains of G-O FFFg.

[Sandro_ventania]

It seems that no theoretical study has been done on this matter, we only have empirical tests. Certainly lighter projectiles have greater potential to reach higher speeds. I keep imagining a .22 or .30 barrel with a wide chamber simulating a rifle case. Would we be able to achieve the ballistics of a .22 Hornet for example in this scheme? Do you understand what I mean?

[Sandro_ventania]

From the Lyman Blackpowder Handbook, page 103. On page 89, they show a .36 caliber round ball getting 2,505 out of a 43-inch barrel using 70 grains of G-O FFFg.

I I think you posted the wrong image...lol!

[2TM101]

From the Lyman Blackpowder Handbook, page 103. On page 89, they show a .36 caliber round ball getting 2,505 out of a 43-inch barrel using 70 grains of G-O FFFg.

That would have to be a 1:95 or slower twist barrel, or a patched round ball will not stay in the rifling.

[Nobade]

Some of those hunting rifles with Forsyth rifling could generate quite high velocities. And with 1:150" twist they had to in order to shoot accurately. Something like the Phaeton underhammers that used 300 grain charges in a 62 caliber barrel.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Some of those hunting rifles with Forsyth rifling could generate quite high velocities. And with 1:150" twist they had to in order to shoot accurately. Something like the Phaeton underhammers that used 300 grain charges in a 62 caliber barrel.

That must have been some exciting recoil.

[Nobade]

That must have been some exciting recoil.

I can only imagine.
https://www.rjrenner.com/faeton-ml-rifle.html

[pietro]

.

IDK, but if it shoots a boolit fast enough to reach out and touch a deer, it's good enough for me.......

[Harter66]

A185 gr RB according to the Lyman TC Hawkins manual with 110 gr of FFFg will reach 24?? In a 28" .

Lyman also shows deference data for 45-120-405 with 34" barrel equal to the 458WM with the same 405 from a 24" barrel .

I've heard/read that a little air space can really speed things up ..........

BP speed and resulting pressure is relative to kernel size , density, surface area . The smaller it's ground the faster it goes, with the accompanying pressure rise . A sealed chamber to barrel will be faster than with a gap between. And a sealed chamber and breach will be faster than one with a flash hole . A 45-90 with 100 gr of FFFg under 165 gr collar button is almost certain to break 2800 fps in as little as a 28".

[lead chucker]

Velocity is good and so far im at best 1604 with a .562 round ball in my 58 renegade barrel. Im going to test my 54 and see what it does. My understanding is a round ball looses its speed and energy pretty fast so i think im where i need to be. As far as how fast you can get out of black powder has allot of variables cartidge cases have limitations so smaller calibers with max loads is where a guy can find that out. Im sure there will be guys on this sight testing this and see what they get pluss with there home grown powder. I would think with a 45 cal with 90 gr 3f and barrel length comes in to play being over 30 inch would give you close to or over 2000 fps.

[Woodnbow]

Velocity is good and so far im at best 1604 with a .562 round ball in my 58 renegade barrel. Im going to test my 54 and see what it does. My understanding is a round ball looses its speed and energy pretty fast so i think im where i need to be. As far as how fast you can get out of black powder has allot of variables cartidge cases have limitations so smaller calibers with max loads is where a guy can find that out. Im sure there will be guys on this sight testing this and see what they get pluss with there home grown powder. I would think with a 45 cal with 90 gr 3f and barrel length comes in to play being over 30 inch would give you close to or over 2000 fps.

From the P-Max calculator… https://www.p-max.uk/cgi-bin/black_powder.cgi it shows a possible speed of over 2800 fps with a .360 ball over a charge of 100 grains of 3f in a 48” barrel.
This calculator is remarkably accurate as compared to actual chronograph readings from the F1 Chronograph and the Magnetospeed V2.

[Sandro_ventania]

It's good to know that this calculator has some accuracy. I sometimes play with it and even doubt the results.

[indian joe]

From the P-Max calculator… https://www.p-max.uk/cgi-bin/black_powder.cgi it shows a possible speed of over 2800 fps with a .360 ball over a charge of 100 grains of 3f in a 48” barrel.
This calculator is remarkably accurate as compared to actual chronograph readings from the F1 Chronograph and the Magnetospeed V2.

The point of diminishing returns starts to bite pretty seriously with a round ball gun from 1800fps - other things matter too - fr instance where did that 2800fps 36cal ball go? dont matter how fast it went if it missed the target.
Patch material? easy, simple and cheap under 1800..

whats the point here ? round ball has woeful ballistics and the smaller the more so. If hunting is the purpose proly find a bigger calibre (heavier) ball over the same powder charge deliver more ooomph at hunting ranges ?