LAGS: i guess they are?? wow! well...good to know that we can make our own and make it well.Originally Posted by almar
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LAGS: i guess they are?? wow! well...good to know that we can make our own and make it well.
Almar;
Yes sir, the vent has my concern, as well. I've been considering a pressure cooker, for awhile. One of the articles said the cooker had a "Stack Vent" whatever that is. Like you, I would think a guy would need to at least vent the moisture off of the wood if nothing else, or set the vessel up with a valve, so you could 'burp' it. The 'stack vent' might be a type of vent like a pressure cooker weight. One time I got carried away with the heat and popped the lid off my paint can, it had enough pressure on it, with just a 1/4" vent hole. Observing the fire off it over the years, I'm thinking a guy could build a LOT of pressure, if it was totally unvented. I'm pretty sure whatever I do, I'm not going to try it with no vent. I don't need to make a crude pipe bomb, out of my retort.
I'm thinking of starting to fabricate a one foot nipple of 3" or 4" schedule 80 pipe, with a welded cap on one end and threaded cap on the other. Plumb in a valve and a gauge port and build a fire and see what happens. I've got an infrared gun that should work to keep up with the temperature. I'm going to study on it a minute, and I'll let you know how it goes. Keep us informed on your project, too.
Hay.
If the Fire at Goex is what prompted them to shut down?
I bet they have a bunch of charcoal sitting around.
Lol
I’ve been making my own for a couple years now and I’m very pleased with the results. I’ve been away from the thread for awhile now but I see some mention of increasing the density of the powder. 100 gr volume of my homemade weighs about 85 gr. I use a 6 ton bottle jack. Forgive my laziness but are you guys getting densities much higher than this? If so can you give me an update without having to wade through 200 pages?
Hi Wolfmanjack, yeah I think I saw your posts from way back. Many of us are now closer to 1:1. My current powder is 1:1 with ffg and slightly more with fffg (30.56gr weight/30gr volume). The first step in increasing my powders density was due to the help I got from doublebuck in post #4175, the pressure applied and the length of time is important. More things I describe in post #4239. With a 6 ton jack i wouldnt go bigger than 2 inch dies.
Swiss document, p.10, bottom “By 350 degrees Centigrade, all of the creosote will have been flashed off and lost through the cylinder stack vent."
So the cylinder is vented not pressurized, probably stacked to allow for a slower venting and prevent air from coming in? I kind of did that with the can in a can thing I think..The problem I had with just a paint can is that it would pop off when cooked fast and hard. But i dont know if would still do that with the low and slow i do now since i stacked weights on top of it with my last setup.
Could something like this work if modified a bit?
https://www.amazon.com/CanCooker-JR-...594075960&th=1
This thread is going to get a lot more popular.....
Well, that really sucks. :~(This thread is going to get a lot more popular.....
Back to us... When it first came up here lately about charcoal cooking temp, I thought "Wow, we've all been very seriously over-cooking our charcoal!" But after doing my first temp monitored batch, I'm thinking maybe not so badly after all. This monitored batch had finished off gassing before it ever reached 700 degrees Farenheit. In fact, it was nearly done gassing at 600. None the less, there's benefits to be had by controlling the temp, as proved by Almar and his great work.
I'm very pleased with my Dutch Oven setup. Nice even temp-burn, easy to use, and fast. With it full of the cedar chips, it conveniently makes enough charcoal for a pound of BP. I can highly recommend it, though I think Almar's upcoming kiln will prove to be the ultimate rig.
Man!! You guys be careful cooking sealed rigs! That frankly scares the hell outta me!
Vettepilot
Last edited by Vettepilot; 09-28-2021 at 07:13 PM.
"Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)
Wolfmanjack my density is a big concern because I wanted to make a product as near in hotness to Swiss as I can, and be able to load full hotness cartridges
I get 91.5 gn in a 100gn measure for 20#-40# 3F. I also got that for GOEX 1F crushed and screened to 3F. Highest so far is 95 gn /100 measure for my own 1F.
I also measure and weigh puck columns (and deduct the spacers) and my batches got 1.74, 1.80 and most recently 1.91 (grams/cm3) solid density uncrushed, with about 3% moisture.
[QUOTE=almar;5269787]Swiss document, p.10, bottom “By 350 degrees Centigrade, all of the creosote will have been flashed off and lost through the cylinder stack vent."
So the cylinder is vented not pressurized, probably stacked to allow for a slower venting and prevent air from coming in? I kind of did that with the can in a can thing I think..The problem I had with just a paint can is that it would pop off when cooked fast and hard. But i dont know if would still do that with the low and slow i do now since i stacked weights on top of it with my last setup.
Could something like this work if modified a bit?
Almar;
You're correct on the Swiss Powder booklet Cylinder Stack Vent. Which tells me, they really don't do anything different than we do. They still let the water vapor, smoke and I would think some volatiles vent out the cylinder. They just finely control their temperature. And, I don't believe it tells how long they do that for, either. Which may or may not be helpful.
The two articles I was talking about the ventless deal was one of SeaMonkey's links, which has a modern operation which uses microwaves, in a vacuum controlled low oxygen environment. The other was from another Seamonkey link, Ulrich Bretscher's Black Powder Page "Charring time has little influence on the carbon concentration of the charcoal. Only the charring temperature is (very) important. At 400°C, wood yields 19% charcoal by weight. If charred in a closed container under pressure, then the yield is 60% charcoal, which is why it is generally done that way by the industry." That's where I got the 'closed container, under pressure' deal.
The other was really unrelated, in a way, but was one of SeaMonkey's other "Torrefacation" links. It appeared they are pressurizing and even using Nitrogen purge to lower Oxygen content in their charring process.
Yes to your picture you posted of the possible retort. I think that would work great, or it looks like it would. I like the latching top.
Actually before I go much further, I'd like to cook a batch like I have for years, but cut the temp back and see if the total carbon content drops, and raises volatiles. I thought the key was keeping the vent plume from being flammable, but I'm thinking now, that is not the case. It seems you still lose volatiles, just not as many, by using the lower cook temps.
I think I am going to still build a restricted vent setup with a pressure gauge and valve to control the pressure, just to see what it results in. It may be a flop, but I think I can cook a container of wood, at 550 -<600°F and maintain a minimal pressure on it, if that would raise the quality of the charcoal. Meanwhile, I'm definitely going to try cooking a batch in my paint can, with lower temp and shutting down, before the volatiles drop off completely. It has my attention.
Someone could write a book with this thread. Doublebuck, keep at it and post results! Vette I should have what i need to build my setup by this weekend, if it works, it should be great...its all theory right now.
Last edited by almar; 09-29-2021 at 07:34 AM.
One of us should take the time to write up a nice post detailing all the best ways and tips for making black powder, as discovered (re-discovered?) here. Then see if we could get the moderators to make it a "sticky".
It is truly a great, epic thread we have going here, and I thoroughly enjoy it. It is however, very difficult to go through and find info, even when you know it's there, (somewheres!). Going through and "cherry picking" all the most important, useful, and helpful data, and making one epic post with all the info in one spot would be great!!
We could even make it a group effort, with each of us reminding the author of things, so he, (she?), could edit and fine tune the "HOMEMAKERS LAST WORD GUIDE TO MAKING YOUR OWN BLACK POWDER" into a truly great info souce; all in one spot!
Any takers to be the "author"?
Vettepilot
"Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)
Beginning outline.
MAKING BLACK POWDER
1. Safety first
2. History you might actually care about.
3. Wood choices, good and not so good.
4. Only 3 chemicals--> use good ones.
5. Methods, CIA not so secret.
6. Charcoal - cooking your mom never taught you.
7. Ball milling- (relax; not yours)
8. Testing--> all tests should be this fun.
9. Compression-- more is better, too much is just right.
10. Busting up.
Ok, you guys continue...
Vettepilot
"Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)
Not to derail anything here but to get my density up I need to let it set under pressure for a longer period of time apparently. I usually go a couple minutes and hit the jack lever every now and then. I usually get to a point where no more compression is possible. So if I let it set for awhile I’ll be able to compress it a little more? Also the discussion about the goex plant not opening back up has me a little concerned about safety. Not the plant reopening but of the multiple explosions they have experienced over the years. My compressed pucks are so hard when dry that considerable force is needed to break them up. I try not to work with too much at a time for safety sake. I let the pucks dry for several days before breaking up and grinding with the ceramic coffee grinder. Would it be better to break up the pucks immediately after compressing when the moisture content of the puck is greatest, then allow those smaller pieces to dry?
I feel that breaking up your pucks when they are still damp or not fully dry will cause you to loose compression.
But that is just my opinion from working for years with Concrete and compacting soil.
IE.
If you disturbed concrete or the compacted soil while damp , it never comes up to density when tested.
I hate to contradict but I now always break them up right after the press while slightly (very slightly) damp, I grind them in the coffee mill right after that and since I'm looking only for 3f, I screen it as well and grind the 2f until it all passes through the 30f. I leave it to dry before screening the powder from the 3f because the dust doesn't screen well when damp, or so I find. I now achieve 1g weight:1 gr volume quite easily.
My personal findings indicate that there were 3 things that really affected density, the first was pressure level and time, I use 3 inch dies so I push it up to 12 tons for 1 hour. The pressure is applied until it does not drop any more and I leave it for 1 hour, I make a stack of 2 pucks at a time.
The second thing was milling time, humidity level here is quite high, 80%in the summer is considered comfortable, its ridiculous, so clumping in the ball mill was a problem after 2 hours. I ball mill now for 5 or 6 hours but I dry the media in an oven or keep a large desiccant packet in the ball mill and seal it, I bring the drum inside where the hvac and dehumidifier keeps the air dry at 40%. I do the same with the powder mix before milling. The smaller the grains of the milled powder, the more it will compress. Each ball mill is different so maybe your ball mill needs less time or more.
The last thing that helped is eliminating all the fine dust from the powder, I like using a large paint brush to move the powder over the screen, the bristles seem to do a good job at keeping the screen unclogged.
It could be that breaking up the puck dry will increase the density even more I don't know but as thing are now, putting a check mark on those three things works fine. Regardless, I would not be afraid of breaking pucks dry or wet ever, unless I was using a flint hammer over a carbon steel anvil. Processing this stuff in a shop or facility can leave a lot of residue over time, very flammable residue. Managing this in my shop has been quite the challenge. I suspect that this may be why these places have fires despite their likely strict procedures.
Last edited by almar; 09-30-2021 at 07:09 AM.
Ok so another question: what would you guys consider the most dangerous part of the process. Ive been doing this for almost 5 years on/off as my powder needs dictated and never felt unsafe. I guess age has a way of realizing our mortality. At what part is the boom most likely to occur? I use lead media for grinding in a pvc pipe. The fittings aren’t glued so an end cap would easily come off preventing a kaboom? The meal is wetted ever so slightly when pressed so I think this part is very safe. I’m thinking grinding or breaking up pucks may be the most dangerous part?
I think it might have been Seamonkey that mentioned about busting up right after pressing and grinding and then tumbling to get a more uniform size to the granules and I was really finding that grinding the dried and busted up pucks was causing a lot of extra wear and tear on both my grinder as well as the grindee, so I changed that this last batch of powder and I think it works much better.
I screen the ground up slightly damp granules, but heck, there is very little moisture in them anyway, then I tumble the granules in the mill for a couple of hours, without the lead balls of course, and then screen again. Seems to have less dust and the granules seem to have better size uniformity.
I am mostly after FFFG size for use in my .36 cal. revolver and my .32 cal. squirrel rifle so I keep anything that passes a 20 mesh screen but will not pass a 40 mesh. This last batch with the grinding soon after pressing seemed to give me less dust and a more grainy flour. I could likely screen out a good bit of FFFFG out of the flour, more so than I could with my first methods where I let the pucks dry out a good bit before grinding. Anyway, it seems to have helped to reduce the dust.
After my second screening I just placed the granules on large cookie sheets and set them out in the sun for a few hours to dry a bit more. Seemed to burn really fast before sun drying and the surface of the burn was almost void of any ash, so it should really be decent dried a bit.
I reduced the ash content in half from 9.8% to 4.6% with my last batch of Black Willow charcoal by cooking it in a can inside a can and at no more that 600 degrees so I am anxious to go test the velocity of this last batch compared to my previous batch. I have already loaded three cylinders each of the two powders in my .36 Cal. Colt Navy replica at 20 gr. charge weight under a ball so now I need to get my chronograph set up and fire them off. Maybe tomorrow.
I had already bettered the velocity of Goex using the same weight charges with my other batch, in fact about 100 fps. better. Hopefully this new batch will better that. I already determined that the density increased a bit from my old batch of 19.5 gr. per same volume of Goex that weighed 24 gr. to the present batch that weighs 21.0gr. for that same volume. Getting closer. Doubt that I will ever reach Swiss level, but I was at least hoping to increase my density to get nearer to the same as Goex. Maybe next batch.
Speaking of Goex, the old tins that they came in might become collectors items one day. I have not bought any in years, but I suspect they switched to plastic? Guess I will save my old tin that I have now.
Last edited by HamGunner; 09-30-2021 at 12:47 AM.
73 de n0ubx, Rick
NRA Benefactor Life Member/VFW Life Member
Probably ball milling is the most dangerous part, although this can be minimized if you use the right media and containor, possibly ground the container for static charge? Or playing around with fire doing burn tests or burning residue around the press while there is powder in compression in the die...Darwin.
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