500 grain bullet for my Win 1886

[KirkD]

Gents, in the photo below, you see on the left an old WRACO 500 grain 45-70 cartridge. This cartridge feeds and chambers with no problem through my original Winchester Model 1886. On the right is one of my reloads, using my Saeco F7D 881 500 grain mould. You can see that if I seat the Saeco bullet such that it is crimped in the crimping groove, the O.A.L. is longer and the nose of this cartridge will not clear the exit of the magazine before the cartridge lifter starts lifting it. I can chamber it by hand and it shoots very accurately in my rifle.

Is there a 500 grain mould for a 45-70 bullet that seats a bit deeper and has a bit of a meplat on it?

[Limey]

KirkD...

...why don't you just seat your existing bullets to a comparible OAL as your WRACO round and use a Lee FCD or similar to cimp it in place?...

...after all, they crimp jacketed bullets without a crimp groove into place with no problems....I have crimped lead bullets into place both above and below their crimp grooves successfully to achieve the OAL I was looking for.

....from your pic it looks like you already have a Lee FCD or similar...I can see the tell tale marks....

...also from the pics looks like someone has pulled the bulllet on the WRACO round with a pair of pliers!....invest in a kinetic hammer if you have not already got one...cheap enough and with no bullet damage.

Straight shootin',

Limey

[KirkD]

I do have a Lee FCD and could do that, but I'd also like a bit of a meplat. I'm sure its safe as is, since I used to shoot some pretty steamy loads using the Hornady 350 grain round nose bullets, but I just like flat meplats. Someone else put those pliers marks on that original bullet; I have one of those kinetic hammers that I use to pull bullets.

[405]

Those guns were designed to shoot 300-400 gr bullets so why shoot the 500 grainers in the 86?--- Ok, well that's personal preference and another story I guess.

Are you wanting a plain base or GC bullet?

I don't have an RCBS 500 gr 45 cal fn mold but looking at their drawings it appears that the nose length and profile for their 300, 325, 405 and 500 45 cal fn bullets are all very similar if not the same. I have their 300, 325 and 405 molds and those nose profiles are nearly identical and the lengths (crimp groove to nose end) are the same at .420-.425". If your 500 Govt (WRACo) nose length is close to .420-.425" you might investigate the RCBS 500 gr fn further.

Or you can go on the Mountain Molds site and design/order the mold you want from scratch. Last I checked MM is on about a 6-12 week estimated backlog.

[KirkD]

Regarding shooting 500 grain bullets in my '86, I suspect that back in the late 1800's, there were a lot of folks who shot the 500 grain 45-70 Govt in their '86's, if those cartridges were plentiful, especially once the army stopped using them creating a surplus. Also, I was surprised how accurate they were out of my '86 ..... four shots into 1 & 3/4" at 100 yards with the open iron sights.

I'll take a look at that RCBS 500 gr mould. Thanks for the tip.

[gon2shoot]

Kirk, I somtimes use a piece of aliminum strap (drilled to the size I want) to insert the nose of a boolit, then a light touch with a file, and you have a wider meplate and or a shorter boolit.

Not a fast process but it works.

[405]

Regarding shooting 500 grain bullets in my '86, I suspect that back in the late 1800's, there were a lot of folks who shot the 500 grain 45-70 Govt in their '86's, if those cartridges were plentiful, especially once the army stopped using them creating a surplus. Also, I was surprised how accurate they were out of my '86 ..... four shots into 1 & 3/4" at 100 yards with the open iron sights.

I'll take a look at that RCBS 500 gr mould. Thanks for the tip.

Ya, kinda. I don't think Browning was looking at a Single Shot or 500 gr Government round when he designed the action. I know the Trapdoor and the big single shots (Sharps, RBs) had been shooting the bigger bullets with success. Winchester was in part competing with the big single shots at that time. Winchester was marketing the 86 with the option for the heavier bullet ammo to compete with the single shot, buffalo rifle legacy. They were smart enough to put 1:20 twist barrels on the 86 45-70s and did offer the big 500 gr bullet load. But, that bullet had to have a shorter nose to function in the 86 and I'm pretty sure they didn't market the idea that all that came at a price with a much diminished case capacity with lessened ballistic capability. They covered their bases in the market tho by also offering other Express type chamberings in the 86 with slower twist barrels for lighter, faster bullets. The 45-90 and 50-110 come to mind.

I was just looking at my cartridge collection and found a loaded, original 500 gr RN round with a WRACo headstamp. It has the much longer RN profile of the standard 500 gr Govt. I'm also quite certain it won't function thru an 86. That means Winchester loaded both a short and long nose version of the 500 gr 45-70. They liked to think in proprietary terms but were not foolish about business and marketing.

[KirkD]

What is the OAL of your original 45-70 500 grain cartridge? I also have an original 45-90 cartridge and they have identical OAL's. An original '86 will feed a 45-70 cartridge that has the same OAL as the 45-90 cartridge. I wonder if my original 45-70 cartridge is the shorter version of the 500 grain cartridges?

[405]

Kirk,
It may be an old reload from the era but I'm nearly 100% sure is is not. It has the domed primer and what looks like a correct factory crimp into the bullet crimp groove with the narrow drive band in front of the groove. It is a standard "Govt" looking roundnose. The OAL measures 2.90. The case length is 2.10. It is loaded with BP as best I can tell. My only thinking about it is that it was from possibly a special order lot designed for single shots- Winchester did make several variations of bullets and ammo during that time. I think the "standard" 500 gr 45-70 Govt round of that era, also produced by at least three contractors including Winchester, had an OAL of about 2.70. Those will function thru the Win 86 45-70 action. This one won't. It won't cycle from the mag in either of my 86s... hanging up on the mag port as the carrier tries to lift. I think the Sharps 45-70 OAL ammo specs of that time were about 2.95. Anywho, no matter all just academic curiosities of history.

I think for reloading an original 86 just use an OAL and nose contour that will feed smoothly, reliably thru the gun. I have two 86s. One a BP gun with a DOM 1894 and the other a smokeless transition gun DOM 1900. I played around with them early on and found both like nearly identical loads. The most reliable bullet styles for cycling thru the magazine were the roundnose varieties with an OAL of about 2.5 to 2.65. My most accurate loads were with a 350 gr. LBT FN type bullet. Of course bullet design is where the rub comes. If you load up to near full recoil and fill the mag tube, the case mouth will have to be crimped in behind either the rear edge of the crimp groove or behind the rear edge of a lube groove. It just doesn't give much leeway on choices for OAL- especially with the bigger, heavier bullets. Then you're at the mercy of bullet design- nose length and where the crimp groove is.

Another idea about a heavy in the 86... I looked at Williamson's Winchester book last night and he was able to make the Lyman 457406 (485 gr) work in the 45-70 Win 86.... not that I'd recommend any of the pressures he subjected his guns to Also, I don't think that mold is part of Lyman's current production?

[KirkD]

Your point about crimping behind the front driving band is something I prefer to do regardless. If a 500 grain bullet gets shoved back into the case, it may still feed, but case volume decreases and pressures increase. Of course, I like to stick with traditional ballistics and stay well away from Williamson's hot loads. The Lyman 457125 looks like it could be a possibility, but I'm having second thoughts about the 500 grain bullet in my 86 for reasons that have been mentioned above.

[405]

Kirk,
Yep, there might be a few current production "heavy" RN molds that would work. Looking in the Lyman book a 45-70 with the 457125 is listed with an OAL of 2.835" . I think it is right on the upper OAL limit for the 86 and could depend on the tolerances of each gun.

[dubber123]

Another option would be to just shorten your brass to reduce OAL. I had a 460 gr. WFN made for my Sharps rep., and my brother wanted to use them in his Marlin. We ended up shortening his brass to make it work. It shoots VERY well, and is his favorite boolit.

[bigted]

Regarding shooting 500 grain bullets in my '86, I suspect that back in the late 1800's, there were a lot of folks who shot the 500 grain 45-70 Govt in their '86's, if those cartridges were plentiful, especially once the army stopped using them creating a surplus. Also, I was surprised how accurate they were out of my '86 ..... four shots into 1 & 3/4" at 100 yards with the open iron sights.

I'll take a look at that RCBS 500 gr mould. Thanks for the tip.

ive been loading and shooing 45/70's for awhile now and one thing i can testify to is that the longer bore riding boolit you can shoot...the better the accuracy to a point. this is why a 400gr will outperform a 350gr and a 500gr will do better generallt then the 400gr.

that rcbs 500gr mould [ i think it is a 45-500] number...is a good looking boolit in that it has the long boreriding bands and the flat nose that seems to do well in 45/70's. i just cast a few of these rcbs 500's today and they came out at .460 diameter. this from pure ww's and skimed to clean up. im pleased with the looks and even tho it is a gas check boolit...it looks rite and i loaded mine to 1450fps with the gas check to try tomarrow. they run thru my marlin just fine so im sure they will run thru your 86 action. my coal is rite at 2.552. this leave enough room inside the case that if you want a shoulder relocation load ,,, there is enough room for this to be accomplished with the rite powder...im using 3031 so far but have a supply of re-loader7 to try as i dont really like the 3031 dirt that it leaves in my barrels [that is burnt powder].

all in all if you can stand the blunt looking boolit nose...try the rcbs mould and i bet you will like it as i think i will as well.

[Don McDowell]

Winchester listed the number of 45-70-500 cartridges the 86 would hold in the magazine. So much for they didn't think anybody would use that bullet in the rifle

Kirk you may want to see if you could get ahold of a handfull of the Saeco 645 bullet. It weighs in at 480 cast from 20-1, has an nice meplat and a creedmoor looking nose. It shoots very well in the 2 rifles I've shot it in. I don't believe it would be a problem in a tube magazine.
Keep in mind "crimp" didn't come along until after smokeless powder had established it's hold on the ammunition market, up until that time neck tension and a case full of powder held the bullets in place, so it's doubtfull winchester had 2 different 500 gr bullets, altho they may have seated a bullet deeper for the leverguns, there's certainly no indication of that being the case in any of their catalogs.

[JJC]

Check out the vendor sponsor section. NOE has extras of the .460 dia 500 gr RF. Mine came today. Looks good.

[NickSS]

The 45-70 length case was loaded with all sorts of bullets and powder charges in the old days. Some were listed as the Government load which had either the government 405 gr or the 500 gr GI bullet. They had other ammo that was in the same case but were listed as for the Sharps or Ballard or Winchester single shots or for the Winchester lever action. AT this late date it is hard from a single cartridge to say if it was for one or the other. Also Winchester sold a lot of primed brass for people to load their own. So a head stamp and a rounded primer is no guarantee that the cartridge was factory loaded. I have used the SACO bullet that Done mentioned and it is a good one both the 480 and the 535 gr version. I have shot several hundred of each and they are good bullets.

[KirkD]

BigTed, please keep me posted on your RCBS 500 grain trials. Is that OAL with the bullet crimped in the crimping groove?

Don, thanks for that info on the SAECO bullet.

Now I'm thinking that I just might get a 500 grain mould to replace the one I have.

[Don McDowell]

More moulds is always a good thing....

[Cimarron Red]

Hi, Kirk,

You may recall that I posted over on the leverguns board that I've had good accuracy from the RCBS 500 grainer in my Miroku 1886's. Charge is 26 grains of 4759. In fact the whole RCBS family of .45 caliber FP GC bullets have shot well in my guns -- 300 gr., 405 and 500. They are great bullets.

[Don McDowell]

There's a fella runs around shooting bpcr buffalo matches with his Browning 86. I can't recall exactly the heavy bullet he uses in that thing, but him and that rifle take no guff from any sharps rifles....