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Thread: The .32 S&W Long as a man-stopper

  1. #81
    Boolit Master mroliver77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rintinglen View Post
    In the Civil war, perhaps people were smaller, my Great Grandfather was 5'5 1/2" tall when he enlisted in the Wisconsin 2nd Cavalry. But the avaerage height of the american enlistee during WW I was 5 ' 9", almost exactly the same as it was for the average draftee during the Vietnam War. Americans have gotten fatter, not taller, at least during the 20th century.
    And I'm certainly proof of that.
    Hmmm, I was looking through some naturalisation forms from the local courthouse circa 1900. Most of these were men in there 20s to late 30s. "I was surprised that while saome went 6 foot most were 5' 6"ish and 130 -150 lbs. That was me in 5th grade!
    Back on topic. I have drained the life ou5t of my share of animals and have been paying attention to detail for the past couple decades. MakeMineA10 most closely reflects my feelings.
    Jay
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    "THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph."
    Thomas Paine

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeMineA10mm View Post
    Again, I'd carry very soft bullets, perhaps 1 in 25 tin to lead, in a design as heavy as possibly with still being able to get to 750fps, and with a flat point.
    750 fps. That's an interesting number and a lower fps / heavier boolit combination that I would expect. What convinced you to go heavy and slow for "social purposes"? I understand the rational for game, but my impression was heavy and slow is just asking for overpenetration for social purposes. Are you an advocate of 147gr 9mm loads? Just curious.

    My impression was somewhere in the ball park of 1200fps is the target speed for loads for social purposes.

  3. #83
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    Good question, Dannix. The reason I picked that speed is two-fold:

    First, revolvers in 32 Long are frequently (but not always) older and weaker designs. In deferrence to that, I'd not push the velocity envelope. If it's a stronger revolver, we could certainly bump the speed up, but look at my next point first.

    Second, with the soft lead bullets I'm advocating (something at or softer than 1/2 & 1/2 WW & Pure lead), we don't want to push velocities either. I'd say, if higher velocity is warranted, I'd bump it up to 850fps or so, but I'd not go above 900fps, due to the potential for leading.

    As far as stopping power theories go, like I said, I'm not convinced any of them are 100% right, or even a significant percentage...

    That is why I like the 10mm. It's not heavy-slow, or fast-light. It attempts to cover all the bases in a conventional-sized pistol with reasonable recoil. I look at the 10mm as a medium-weight & bore dia. plus high velocity, but it keeps recoil below what you'd get with a 41Mag, 44Mag, or even a 357Mag (marginally, mainly because of the benefits of a semi-auto's recoil-softening, rather than inherent recoil of the cartridges themselves).

    Shooting heavy JHP bullets at high velocity in say a 32 Federal would be very interesting to compare to a 10mm, but it does have an inherent bore-diameter weakness, compared to a 10mm. But, for anyone recoil sensitive, that may be the next best thing to a 10mm... And, it's difficult to go much bigger than the 10mm, because if you step up to something like, say, the 45 Super, the recoil starts to really degrade rapidity of accurate, aimed fire.

    I really think the 10mm is the ideal balance, as did Jeff Cooper, and so would, I think, Elmer Keith, Bill Jordan, and Skeeter Skelton. Those are four names in handgunning/law enforcement that are difficult to ignore. But, the 10mm is still a pistol, so I'd still rather have a 12ga w/ buckshot!
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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeMineA10mm View Post
    with the soft lead bullets I'm advocating (something at or softer than 1/2 & 1/2 WW & Pure lead), we don't want to push velocities either.
    Why not just cast up some 2-parters, with the top section at maybe 95%Pb5%Sn, and just use 1-parters for pinking?

    There is indeed something nice about an inherent large metplat, rather than having to rely on HP expansion. This is one reason I've decided to not try .327Mag. Sometimes I think I may convert to to 40/10mm, but for social purposes I'm too convinced a good 124gr 9x19mm load is as good as any. One thing I'm very interested in testing is the penetration of a 1200fps FN .45ACP load, where the low weight required to safely reach 1200fps would result in a very low sectional density FN and thereby decreasing penetration. Not sure if it would be a stable projectile though. So many options, so little time.
    Last edited by Dannix; 01-03-2011 at 03:50 PM.

  5. #85
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    Dannix, I share your 9mm preference for the 120-125 grain expanding bullet, driven at 1200-1250 FPS. THAT was my usual carry load until a couple years ago, when my authorizing agency tightened ammo requirements after they signed on for H.R. 218. 9mm carry now requires the 147 sub-sonic, and those d--n rounds aren't even humane for jackrabbit strafing. Hence the Glock 23 and 180 grain SXTs these days.

    I only WISH the 10mm was authorized. A more perfect service pistol caliber has yet to be birthed. The Forty Short & Weak gets close, but not quite.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  6. #86
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    I forgot to mention my other preferrences. As you can infer from what I said (generally in the direction of Molly) about carrying, sometimes I use a 380 or 9mm, due to size/concealment. My thought is, if I am carrying concealed, 999 times out of 1000 I'm off-duty, and I can choose if/when to get involved.

    In the 9mm, I really like the Triton Quik-Shok 135gr +P+ going about 1175-1225fps. It's a very wicked load. Core comes apart into three banana-shaped chunks which divert into about a 4" patter from the center of the previous path, and they twist as they go, due to the centrifugal forces from the spin of the bullet. I haven't seen anyone shot by these, but after talking it over with my former chief pathologist and looking at some gelatin data, it appears these are the ultimate loads in terms of shredding flesh and encouraging bleeding. The dispersion also gives one a better chance of hitting something vital, if one's shot is a little off. The developer of the Quik-Shok says it imparts severe shok to the nervous system, but I'm not sure what that means... Don't discount it, just don't know if I believe it's a huge factor in incapacitation. (Again, notice this is a medium-weight, fast-velocity load for the caliber... That is kind-of my thing. -- In 45, I like the 200gr loads, but my agency requires the 230s. Picked properly they're not bad, but I'd like a 200 @ 1000fps instead...)

    In the 380, my other primary concealed-carry, I use the Hornady Critical Defense. Those loads have penetration like all get-out AND they still expand, even through barriers. AWFULLY good for such a low-powered round. When it gets down to rounds this weak, penetration becomes more predominate in my mind in order to assure barrier penetration and reasonable body penetration. (Had a guy on the morgue table once who was shot my a 25ACP in the temple, and the bullet went in right above his ear, and then skidded outside his skull but under his skin, all the way around to the other side of his head, coming to rest almost in-line with the entrance wound. He was killed by a subsequent shot that went in the back of his head, just above the neck right into the medulla. But this goes to show you some of the down-sides of the ultra-small calibers.
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  7. #87
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    I don’t think it’s plagiarism if I give full credit, and this sure fits into the topic of this thread, so here goes:

    Posted on Graybear Outdoors forum by: LouisianaMan

    Quote: Milk jug penetration test results with snubbie .32 SWL and .38 SPL
    on: June 07, 2009, 08:21:31 PM
    Just ran a penetration test on water-filled milk jugs, with caps screwed on, and the 6 jugs taped together with two wraps of duct tape. Range from muzzle to first jug was 10 feet. Temp was about 82 degrees. No attempt was made to tilt guns to seat powder against either primer or bullet.
    #1: Colt Detective Special .38 SPL, 2" bbl, with 200g Mt. Baldy LSWC-K, meplat .280 (I think) seated deep and crimped over front shoulder, with 3.4g Win231. (This load and gun previously chrono'ed at 718 fps, thereby trying to ensure similarity to original factory ballistics of 770 fps from 6" bbl. It is modified from "Mikey's load" of 3.8g of the same powder.)
    RESULTS: penetrated all 6 jugs and struck nose-first into a 2" x 12" placed behind the last jug, knocking a hole in the board up to the bullet shoulder, then falling out onto the ground while knocking down the 15" long board. Bullet path was arrow-straight, exiting through the tape on the back side of the sixth jug at same relative location as it struck the first jug. All caps remained intact. First two jugs failed at the circular "dimple" molded in the side; all others bulged the dimple outward without causing it to fail. After impact, the row of taped-together jugs toppled over and fell off the two 2"x4" boards I'd placed them upon.

    #2: S&W Mod. 30-1, .32 S&W Long, 2" bbl., with 115-grain Hunter's Supply LFP .313 bullet, meplat .220 (I think), seated to crimp groove, with 2.8g Win 231. (This load is based on Ed Harris's loads recommended for strong, modern S&W heat-treated revolvers, keeping sample average at/below 850 fps from 4" bbl. From my 2" bbl., this load chrono's at 770 fps.)
    RESULTS: penetrated all 6 jugs and struck nose-first into a 2" x 12" placed behind the last jug, knocking a shallow 1/8" dent in the board, then falling out onto the ground without knocking down the 15" long board. Bullet path was straight until it exited the 5th jug and entered the 6th, deviating about 2" by the time it exited the last jug. This may or may not have been a result of me failing to align my jugs & the shot as exactly as I did with the .38. After impact, the jugs remained atop the two 2"x4" boards they were placed upon. Perhaps that was due to lesser impact force, or perhaps it was because I had shimmed the rather unstable boards before this shot.

    Using the "Ballisticians' Corner" formulas provided at Beartooth Bullets website, here is additional info about these loads:
    1. Permanent Wound Channel (vel x meplat): .38 is .503"; .32 is .424"
    2. Relative Penetration Index (wt. x meplat): .38 is 49.6; .32 is 33.94
    3. Thornily Relative Stopping Power (wt. x diameter x vel.): .38 is 35; .32 is 20
    4. Taylor Knock-out Power (wt. x vel. x diameter): .38 is 7; .32 is 4.
    Also, I calculated the foot-pounds of energy as 229 ft-lbs. for this .38 load, and 151 ft-lbs. for this .32 load.
    After we drink some more milk, I'll try the same tests with some other loads. Happy shooting!

    End of quote.
    Regards,

    Molly

    "The remedy for evil men is not the abrogation of the rights of law abiding citizens. The remedy for evil men is the gallows." Thomas Jefferson

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by MtGun44 View Post
    Physically impossible to 'stop and reverse direction of 120 lb mass'. If you set up a 120
    lb log and shoot it with a .45 ACP it will not move more than 1/4". Sorry, but the laws
    of physics will be strictly enforced. The recoil would knock you down if the impact could
    do that.

    Bill
    i agree

  9. #89
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    >Originally Posted by MtGun44
    >Physically impossible to 'stop and reverse direction of 120 lb mass'. If you set up a 120 lb log and shoot it with a .45 ACP it will not move more than 1/4". Sorry, but the laws of physics will be strictly enforced. The recoil would knock you down if the impact could do that.

    This is absolutely correct from the perspective of hard science and physics. But you have misunderstood my use of the term 'manstopper'. I didn't intend it in the sense that a concrete wall is a manstopper, nor in the sense that a howitzer is a manstopper. What I was trying to convey was the notion of a handgun round capable of inflicting sufficient pain and / or physical damage to render the recipient unwilling or incapable of continuing the actions that were sufficiently distressing that you were willing to shoot him rather than allow him to continue.

    To me, a 'manstopper' in this context is a round with a sufficiently high combination of factors (energy / mass / penetration / momentum / expansion / fragmentation) to have a reasonably high potential for success in this objective.

    Different rounds will provide different combinations of those factors, and can change rankings due to external factors like heavy clothing and adrenaline levels in the recipient. There is thus no firmly quantifiable evaluation possible. Judgment based on logic / experience / prejudice and empirical testing such as wet newspaper, water filled containers and / or ballistic gelatin plays a large role in the very personal decision of what is - or is not - acceptable as a manstopper in a defensive situation.

    Are we all clear now?
    Regards,

    Molly

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  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molly View Post
    This is absolutely correct from the perspective of hard science and physics. But you have misunderstood my use of the term 'manstopper'. I didn't intend it in the sense that a concrete wall is a manstopper, nor in the sense that a howitzer is a manstopper. What I was trying to convey was the notion of a handgun round capable of inflicting sufficient pain and / or physical damage to render the recipient unwilling or incapable of continuing the actions that were sufficiently distressing that you were willing to shoot him rather than allow him to continue.
    To me, a 'manstopper' in this context is a round with a sufficiently high combination of factors (energy / mass / penetration / momentum / expansion / fragmentation) to have a reasonably high potential for success in this objective.

    Different rounds will provide different combinations of those factors, and can change rankings due to external factors like heavy clothing and adrenaline levels in the recipient. There is thus no firmly quantifiable evaluation possible. Judgment based on logic / experience / prejudice and empirical testing such as wet newspaper, water filled containers and / or ballistic gelatin plays a large role in the very personal decision of what is - or is not - acceptable as a manstopper in a defensive situation.

    Are we all clear now?
    With this you are trying to quantify something that has eluded all persons who have put their mind to the question.

    Dr. Fackler pointed out that this IS a factor. First is shot placement - hit the Central Nervous System and the threat stops. Second, is this amorphous, impossible-to-quantify issue of a person just deciding to quit/stop. Third is the bleed-out factor, which Dr. Fackler has glommed onto, because it's relatively easy to quantify.

    Is the 32 Long effective for those second-classification "stoppers"?? Sure, just as much as any other caliber, 22 Short to 105mm Howitzer. It kind of falls into the area of, if you like it, USE IT!!
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  11. #91
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    >With this you are trying to quantify something that has eluded all persons who have put their mind to the question.

    If 'stopping power' were quantifiable, this discussion would be pointless. I could just measure or calculate the appropriate value for any given round, and give it an impartial pass / fail grade.

    >First is shot placement - hit the Central Nervous System and the threat stops. Second, is this amorphous, impossible-to-quantify issue of a person just deciding to quit/stop. Third is the bleed-out factor, which Dr. Fackler has glommed onto, because it's relatively easy to quantify.

    Yeah, I suspect the second factor you list is the biggest ambiguity in any such assessment. "To me, a 'manstopper' in this context is a round with a sufficiently high combination of factors (energy / mass / penetration / momentum / expansion / fragmentation) to have a reasonably high potential for success in this objective." The problem lies in the disagreement of what constitutes a reasonably high potential for success, particularly when handloaded to its full potential.

    >Is the 32 Long effective for those second-classification "stoppers"?? Sure, just as much as any other caliber, 22 Short to 105mm Howitzer. It kind of falls into the area of, if you like it, USE IT!!

    And here we fall into the same problem of defining reasonable. There are practical limits. Elephants have been recorded as killed with a single shot from a .22 LR handgun ... but I suspect that very few knowlegable hunters would consider a .22 handgun as effective, or as having a 'reasonably high potential for success', no matter how much you might like the .22 LR and/or handguns.

    The M1 Carbine was cited in my initial post, just to point out the obvious fact that small caliber rounds still have considerable utility as man stoppers. The M1 carbine has gathered a lot of contempt, but not among WWII pacific theater veterans, where it was quite popular. Except for initial MV, it's quite comparable to the .32 long in diameter and bullet shape and weight. Published velocities for it are: Velocity: Muzzle 1580; 100 yd. 1293; 200 yd. 1093; 300 yd. 976; 400 yd. 896; 500 yd. 832 fps.

    Many commercial 32 long loads are rather anemic due to ancient handguns, but Speer reports a 100 g commercial JHP factory load for the .32 Long developing a velocity of 1245 fps. Nor is it difficult to find handloading data for similar loads.

    To me, this strongly suggests that a point blank shot from this factory .32 Long (and comparable handloads) is quite similar to a shot by an M1 carbine at about 100 yards. The M1 carbine round has gathered a lot of contempt, but not among veterans of the WWII Pacific theater, where it was quite popular. It also has a certain popularity with police; A magazine article quoted an un-named oficer, (questioned about its lack of power), who reportedly replied 'I ain't had to shoot nobody twice yet.'

    This sort of comparison left me wondering why the .32 Long garnered such contempt, while the 30 Carbine was a success with only about a 100 yard advantage. This was the motivation behind starting this thread. I've heard a lot of opinion, smoke and dust, but very little in the way of solid comparisons or even historical records of effectiveness of the 32 long in the hands of police. Perhaps such records no longer exist, if they ever did. Rereading the Thompson/LaGard reports of early -and very unsophisticated - animal trials don't seem to provide any real justification for large calibers, though that was their recomendation.

    OK, lots more to say, but this is already too long. Soapbox mode OFF.
    Regards,

    Molly

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    In my attempt at brevity, I'm afraid I didn't make the key factor about the second quality of stopping power very clear.

    The most important aspect about the "getting someone to quit" factor has nothing to do with what caliber you aim or shoot at them. It has everything to do with their mental state, certain physiological factors, and their belief/perception/fear about getting shot. That's why it matters not whether you use a .22 or a 375H&H.

    If a person is in an adrenaline rush (physiological) they may not realize they are shot or being shot at, and so not react, even though it may be a big caliber. Likewise the PCP (and other drugs). LEOs get trained to never quit fighting and that being shot is rarely fatal. It is a way of training the mind to minimize a badguy's chance of winning a fight due to the pre-concieved notions each LEO brings with them to the job as a human. Another example is the great volume of examples where the mere presentation of a gun stops unwanted behavior. The people backing down in those instances are those who would very likely give up in a fight when hit in the little toe by a .22 LR.

    So, out of the three factors, the first has to do with your accuracy (shot placement for a CNS shot), especially referrence shooting accurately while under stress.

    The second factor has mostly to do with the other party's perception (or lack thereof) of getting shot, shot at, or intimidated by a weapon. The one factor here you DO have control of is that you must have a gun (any gun).

    Third is the bleed-out factor which Dr. Fackler has studied thoroughly.

    And, I believe, these are listed in their order of importance in stopping a threat. Naturally, mental, physical, and shooting under stress training are also key ingredients we have under our control. A final important aspect of a defensive shooting is multiple hits, which also connects directly to training.

    Note that caliber is fairly unimportant in the first two, so if you have superior confidence in the 32 Long so that you shoot it better, by all means use it! Don't forget to train and shoot multiple shots in center of mass in order to overcome any minor deficiency of the 32's blood loss abilities vs. the 38 or 45.

    I happen to be a 30 Carbine fan too, but you are underestimating velocities by a pretty big margin. Factory loads go around 1970 fps published muzzle velocity with reality being 1850-1950 fps mostly, from the M-1 carbine. (Perhaps you were quoting pistol velocities from the Blackhawk? If so, that's not a good comparison for the WWII track record of the round, because our troops never used the 30 Carbine Blackhawk.). Where the Carbine's reputation got sullied was really Korea, where it had some epic failures to stop. Many of those stories sound a lot like some of the factors I pointed out above in the second factor of stopping power (psychological/physiological).
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  13. #93
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    Seriously guys, if it's all that's available then it's what I'll use. It is much more effective than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick , and certainly more effective that a .22 rimfire, 25 ACP, and the like. Factory ammo is a serious drawback to the caliber, and I'm not convinced that handloads are a good idea for self-defense. I certainly wouldn't buy a .32 with the express plan of using it for self-defense. One thing to remember too, take two almost identical revolvers, one chambered in .32 long and the other in 38 Spl. The .32 revolver will weigh more than the 38 will anyway. The bore is larger and the chambers are larger. There's simply less steel to carry around. In some instances, you may get an extra shot with the 32 (6 round cylinder vs 5 round cylinder), but you're going to have to do some looking to find one.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeMineA10mm View Post
    ... I happen to be a 30 Carbine fan too, but you are underestimating velocities by a pretty big margin. Factory loads go around 1970 fps published muzzle velocity with reality being 1850-1950 fps mostly, from the M-1 carbine. (Perhaps you were quoting pistol velocities from the Blackhawk? If so, that's not a good comparison for the WWII track record of the round, because our troops never used the 30 Carbine Blackhawk.). Where the Carbine's reputation got sullied was really Korea, where it had some epic failures to stop. Many of those stories sound a lot like some of the factors I pointed out above in the second factor of stopping power (psychological/physiological)
    I got the M1 Carbine data from The High Road website, where it was published in response to a question from a reader. There was no suggestion that it was anything but standard ballistics from the carbine.

    There is no doubt that you are correct regarding the influence of adrennalin and medication on the reactions of shooter and shootee. Attitude is also a powerful factor: I've been involved in a number of situations where powder would have burnt had I not made it VERY clear to all concerned that the fun and games were over, and that baring a very sudden cessation of antisocial behavior, powder WOULD be burning in a matter of seconds. While I do not (dare not) rely on it, the fact is that the unexpected apearance of almost any handgun in the hands of an angry opponent has to date been 100 % effective, even prevailing against a small band of hostile drunken thugs. But while true, this doesn't address the thread theme of whether a hot factory load or handloaded 32 S&W Long will handle the rare individual who is sufficiently angry or irrational to try to press an attack against an armed foe.

    The more I study this issue, the more convinced I become that the .32 Long in a hot load would be 'reasonably effectve' at stopping such attacks, particularly with a heavier bullet weight that features a large flat meplat. Dale53 and I are accumulating plastic bottles to fill with water and conduct some semi-scientific tests in this regard with a number of calibers. We will post the results here sometime after the weather breaks.
    Regards,

    Molly

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    Interesting stuff. What I'm wondering is what is the official definition of 'manstopper'? Seems people see it many ways, from a stong deterrent approach to actually physically incapacitating a drug crazed assailant. That's a pretty broad spectrum. The concept of a 'manstopper' is irrelevant until actual mortal combat is underway. Deterrent isn't part of the equation, we're past deterring when a manstopper is needed. 'Manstopper' to me means the instant incapacitation effect, which is based a lot more on where you hit them than with what. For me, a high capacity anything is the berries. I'm gonna shoot that sucker as many times as possible and then run like hell. A .32 Long well loaded and well shot is probably going to be about as good as a lot of things people rely on. But it wouldn't be my first choice.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molly View Post
    The more I study this issue, the more convinced I become that the .32 Long in a hot load would be 'reasonably effectve' at stopping such attacks, particularly with a heavier bullet weight that features a large flat meplat. Dale53 and I are accumulating plastic bottles to fill with water and conduct some semi-scientific tests in this regard with a number of calibers. We will post the results here sometime after the weather breaks.
    THAT information is anticipated with enthusiasm, gentlemen. I hold you both in high esteem, both for your knowledge and your objectivity.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

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    as an adrenalin/drug crazed manstopper.
    maybe we should treat it like dangerous game hunting?
    shatter the pelvis ,femur,spine,skull etc.

  18. #98
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    Re: Silk scarf body armor

    Molly's comment made me remember something I read previously.

    IIRC, allegedly Wyatt Earp was noted to wear a coat of some sort in even the hottest weather. He had a heavy silk vest that he also wore constantly. It was suggested that the vest functioned as body armor and that Earp also vigorously discouraged people discussing his attire, When you consider the more popular calibers of the day and the people Earp would be coming in contact with, it ties in nicely with Molly's ideas.


  19. #99
    Boolit Master
    NoZombies's Avatar
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    May 2009
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    N. Florida
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    My brother used to manage a pizza place while he was in college. He recounts the stories from the 2 times he was robbed at gun point:

    "I was standing there behind the register when the guy came into the store yelling 'Get down on the ground, or I'll shoot you!' I saw the gun as he pointed it at me and told me to empty the register, and I honestly felt like I could have been shot by that and not been hurt, it looked like a toy, but company policy said that I was to give a robber what they asked for to prevent violence."

    And the second story:

    "I was in the back when I heard the commotion up front and went out to investigate. Everybody had their hands up and the robber was behind the counter emptying the cash drawer. I wanted him to leave quickly. I was afraid he might shoot someone if we didn't cooperate."

    My brother isn't much of a gun guy, and didn't recognize either gun during the incidents, but both crooks were caught, and my brother testified in both court cases. The gun in the first instance was a Belgian copy of the Colt .25 pocket pistol. The "gun" in the second instance was a crosman pellet gun that was modeled after the colt python revolvers. It's funny that the gun that looked like a toy wasn't and the one that was more like a toy was seen as more of a menace in my brothers eyes.

    The psychological difference in the mind of my brother was directly related to the size of the gun, and not the caliber of the gun.

    I don't think I'd feel comfortable trying to CC a desert eagle, so I carry a 1911 of some flavor, most of the time. I hope I never need to fire my carry gun at anything other than paper targets.

    I have a large .32 revolver that a friend who's not a gunny looked at and said "ooh, like Dirty Harry" and I'm sure that psychologically it would be as effective as pointing a .357 of the same size at someone. But if I have to pull the trigger, I'd rather it was a .357.

    I would still hate to be shot by a .32, especially one with good handloads.

    I love the .32 long cartridge, and I will continue to shoot one for a long time. It will never be my first choice as a defensive caliber, but in the instances when I'm wearing such clothing that I can't carry my compact 1911, I'll carry something else and not be worried about it, even if it's "just" a .32.
    Nozombies.com Practical Zombie Survival

    I collect all things .32. If you have something you don't need, please let me know!

  20. #100
    Moderator Emeritus/Boolit Master in Heavens Range
    Molly's Avatar
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    Gentlemen, here's a link to one of the most carefully reasoned (and rational) considerations of stopping power in the self defense context that I've seen in many a moon. He discusses the concepts with almost no references to the 'best' caliber or cartridge. Great reading, and a great site too:

    http://grantcunningham.com/blog_file...er_series.html
    Regards,

    Molly

    "The remedy for evil men is not the abrogation of the rights of law abiding citizens. The remedy for evil men is the gallows." Thomas Jefferson

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check