Inline FabricationRotoMetals2ADvertise hereGraf & Sons
StainLess Steel MediaTitan ReloadingLee PrecisionMidSouth Shooters Supply

Page 4 of 28 FirstFirst 1234567891011121314 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 552

Thread: The .32 S&W Long as a man-stopper

  1. #61
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    1,364
    Quote Originally Posted by Molly View Post
    I see no reason that the basic idea couldn't be put to use today. Buy a genuine silk scarf for the lady in your life, and get a couple more for yourself. Use safety pins to attach them to the inside of your undershirt. For that matter, you should be able to come up with a bit of Kevlar cloth today, to serve the same purpose. Wouldn't be as good as a Kevlar vest, but wouldn't be as expensive or hot to wear either. Wouldn't hurt, and might help a lot! Ought to be fairly decent protection against knife thrusts too.
    That's a really intriguing idea. It's so simply that it's brilliant. I wonder if this would be a more effective defense against larger, slower moving calibers, than smaller, faster ones, and if there is a difference in effectiveness just how great it would be. Or if the greater inertia of a heavier bullet choice would help the bullet punch through. Maybe FN's could be honed to crisp, sharp edge could counter it though. Maybe a dual layer shirt would be idea, silk as the inside layer, kevlar as the outside.

  2. #62
    Boolit Master
    9.3X62AL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Redlands, NorKifornia
    Posts
    11,166
    Quote Originally Posted by Piedmont View Post
    "Placement is king. Penetration is queen, and everything else is how many angels can dance on the head of a pin."
    Succint and accurate summation. I like it!

    One of the rationale points for the Soviets/Russians to adopt the 5.45 x 18 PSM pistol caliber over the 9mm Makarov was the smaller caliber's enhanced potential to defeat layered clothing--assisted by steel-cored penetrator-equipped bullets. And, again we see the use of same caliber pistol barrels as the using services' rifle rounds--presumably to expedite and simplify manufacturing. This is another example of a pistol caliber that likely does its best work on targets going away rather than oncoming.......but those in charge of such choice-makings seldom have to live (or die) with the results of those selections.
    Last edited by 9.3X62AL; 01-01-2011 at 04:14 PM.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  3. #63
    Moderator Emeritus/Boolit Master in Heavens Range
    Molly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    South Charleston, WV
    Posts
    1,130
    >those in charge of such choice-makings seldom have to live (or die) with the results of those selections.

    Yet another "Succinct and accurate summation!" I like it!!!!

    You know, it occurs to me what that I've done is to open up yet another chapter in the unending argument of bullet velocity vs bullet weight. With seemingly endless permutations of bullet nose shape, flat point vs hollow point vs diameter (and on and on and on). It is fascinating to reflect on, but sometimes one side is defended with more enthusiasm than with facts.

    Sometimes it helps to run an argument out to the point of absurdity. You can frequently learn something. At the very least, it can make you re-evaluate the accuracy of your position. In this case, I wonder what choices we would make if we had to choose between an adversary armed with guns that shoot sewing needles at say 5,000 fps or with guns that fired 45 ACP? The needle will have almost no point or diameter. It wouldn’t be slowed much by the impact, so it shouldn’t leave much energy behind as it passes, but what it leaves could be traumatic. The 45 ACP could be stopped by a Kevlar vest, and impart ALL of its energy, but without penetration.

    Would the needles generate massive systemic disruption from velocity induced cavitations, or would they just punch a pinpoint hole through the Kevlar vest (and you) that would hardly bleed? We see this every day with hypodermic needles that penetrate with little injury, but they are admittedly a poor comparison because they are not supersonic. Best I can think of though...

    Assuming the 45 ACP is stopped on the Kevlar vest, would it just leave you with a sore chest, or could it still cause shock and fatality through the transmitted impact? A baseball bat might produce a fatality from transmitted impact without any penetration.

    Absurd? You betcha! So park reality in the garage, and decide which foe would you rather face. Would you rather receive penetration without impact, or impact without penetration, and why?
    Last edited by Molly; 01-01-2011 at 05:55 PM.
    Regards,

    Molly

    "The remedy for evil men is not the abrogation of the rights of law abiding citizens. The remedy for evil men is the gallows." Thomas Jefferson

  4. #64
    Moderator Emeritus/Boolit Master in Heavens Range
    Molly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    South Charleston, WV
    Posts
    1,130
    Quote Originally Posted by Dannix View Post
    That's a really intriguing idea. ... I wonder if this would be a more effective defense against larger, slower moving calibers, than smaller, faster ones, and if there is a difference in effectiveness just how great it would be. Or if the greater inertia of a heavier bullet choice would help the bullet punch through. Maybe FN's could be honed to crisp, sharp edge could counter it though. Maybe a dual layer shirt would be idea, silk as the inside layer, kevlar as the outside.
    Hi Dannix,

    Remember, this is all speculation. I think it's REASONABLE speculation, but it's still just speculation. It's the sort of thing one might select if real trouble is a remote possibility, but not a serious probability.

    If real trouble is a serious possibility, I'd recommend a full Kevlar vest, the full staff of the local police and hospital ER departments, and a squad of husky marines to suppliment the M1 Garand you take just because it feels so comforting.

    That said, I have to add that it seems such a logical and reasonable measure, and would be so easy and cheap to impliment, that I can see no real reason not to give it a try. It won't give you the protection of the kevlar vest with the police and marines, but it should be a lot better than your shiny pink and precious hide at turning or minimizing antisocial manifestations.
    Regards,

    Molly

    "The remedy for evil men is not the abrogation of the rights of law abiding citizens. The remedy for evil men is the gallows." Thomas Jefferson

  5. #65
    Banned


    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    29˚6827N, 99˚1207W
    Posts
    14,677
    Quote Originally Posted by Bret4207 View Post
    To follow up on Bass's post above- this argument is another case of "clothes make the man" or "he with the most toys wins". Gear, no matter how tacticool or expensive or big in caliber is not a replacement for attitude. Carry what you want, trust your instincts and stay away from trouble spots.
    Whh, What? I didn't say nuthin' here!

    But since you drug me into it here's my approach. I can kill you with my bare hands in the right situation and if I had the will to do it. I can do the same with a knife, stick, rock or gun. If, god forbid, I find myself fighting for my life, I hope that I have sufficient mental preparation to instinctively use the best weapon available to me, but who knows. I've only been in one serious self-defense situation and I emptied my Kimber into the face and chest of a 120lb dog at point-blank range. I learned two things: One, when in total freak-out mode I was able to effectively deploy and fire my gun, not always what happens with people who carry. I didn't know I'd run it dry until the trigger stopped responding, at which point I thought it jammed so I did a tap, rack, OH! and quickly reloaded. I didn't come back to reality until I dropped the slide again, and still have no memory of actually shooting. The other thing I learned, a .45 ACP has enough energy to halt the forward progress and, in midair, reverse the direction of a lunging 120lb mass. If that had been a human lunging at me with a knife, he wouldn't have made it because he would have been flipped over backwards, even if it took him six months to die from the gunshot wounds. Being able to physcially reverse forward momentum or knock an attacker flat on his back is paramount to me. While any trained person can use a .22 rimfire pistol to great effect, that effect may not be as immediate as needed, but is a heck of a lot better than a bare fist. You carry what you like, I'll pack a .45.

    Gear

  6. #66
    Boolit Master

    MtGun44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    eastern Kansas- suburb of KC
    Posts
    15,029
    Physically impossible to 'stop and reverse direction of 120 lb mass'. If you set up a 120
    lb log and shoot it with a .45 ACP it will not move more than 1/4". Sorry, but the laws
    of physics will be strictly enforced. The recoil would knock you down if the impact could
    do that.

    Bill
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  7. #67
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    South Western Indiana
    Posts
    1,817
    When Kevelar was first brought out for general issue we were tought to treat as a penetrating wound. The hydrolic wave from an impact from a poor fitting or loose fiting vest was the fear. I can see when the wave passes through fluid filled or solid organs fractures or ruptures could result. A properly fitted and worn vest supports itself.

    One place where the vest has saved the most lives is in crashes. The reason bull riders wear vests is to spread impacts to the torso.

    Molly, we will be butchering again in a few weeks, in the interest of research, I think I will use the S&W 30-1 with the standard bullet. It will most likely not prove anything on a head shot. I do know that a LR HP 22 will not penatrate a hogs skull while a standard short will.
    Don't buy nuthing you can't take home

    Joel 3:10

  8. #68
    Banned 45 2.1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Little Egypt, Part of the political fifedom of Chicago
    Posts
    7,099
    Quote Originally Posted by Molly View Post
    For that matter, you should be able to come up with a bit of Kevlar cloth today, to serve the same purpose. Wouldn't be as good as a Kevlar vest, but wouldn't be as expensive or hot to wear either. Wouldn't hurt, and might help a lot! Ought to be fairly decent protection against knife thrusts too.
    I have lots of Cop friends.......... during the introduction of the new Kevlar vests, they all had samples and some vests they wanted tested. Due to the advertising hype, a lot of bets were made as to nothing could get thru their vests. One afternoon they all got a drastic lesson in penetration capabilities of various things and lost their money. Don't believe all you read.......... some very simple ideas do nasty things.

  9. #69
    Moderator Emeritus/Boolit Master in Heavens Range
    Molly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    South Charleston, WV
    Posts
    1,130
    Quote Originally Posted by 45 2.1 View Post
    I have lots of Cop friends.......... during the introduction of the new Kevlar vests, they all had samples and some vests they wanted tested. Due to the advertising hype, a lot of bets were made as to nothing could get thru their vests. One afternoon they all got a drastic lesson in penetration capabilities of various things and lost their money. Don't believe all you read.......... some very simple ideas do nasty things.
    Well 45 2.1,

    It sounds like you have information that a lot of us would like to hear. Write us a magazine article.
    Regards,

    Molly

    "The remedy for evil men is not the abrogation of the rights of law abiding citizens. The remedy for evil men is the gallows." Thomas Jefferson

  10. #70
    Perma - Banned


    Bret4207's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    St Lawrence Valley, NY
    Posts
    12,931
    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    Whh, What? I didn't say nuthin' here!

    But since you drug me into it
    BASS as in Bassackwards.

  11. #71
    Perma - Banned


    Bret4207's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    St Lawrence Valley, NY
    Posts
    12,931
    Quote Originally Posted by Molly View Post
    Well 45 2.1,

    It sounds like you have information that a lot of us would like to hear. Write us a magazine article.
    No, that just lets the bad guys in on more ideas. It's pretty well known these days what will go through street level body armor. No need to put more ideas in the heads of those who would do harm.


    Way OT, but that's one of the things I hate most about TV shows, Nobody ever wears a vest till they go on a raid. Then they wear it on the outside. To anyone with common sense that just screams "SHOOT ME IN THE HEAD!!!!" Even a dumb hick cop like me could figure that out.

  12. #72
    Boolit Master



    gray wolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Western Maine
    Posts
    3,826
    Well there has been quite a lot said here but I am still stuck on page one.
    Can't get my mind off that 45 ACP that only went through one milk jug ?????????
    I have done many Milk jug tests and have gotten penetration through Three (3) jugs every time, and thats with the jugs standing up rite.
    If my math is correct that's about 18" penetration.
    Three jugs with a 45 ACP MiHeck HP and a big dent in the wood behind the last jug.
    The slug could cover a 25 cent piece. I had the Pic. posted here some time ago.
    That said, my choice is a 45 ACP, and that was way before I shot milk jugs.
    All of the comments and post have been very interesting. I enjoyed all the input.
    I hinted to Julie that if she has to go to her 32 ACP backup gun
    She might consider emptying the mag.
    Hate is like drinking poison and hoping the other man dies.

    *Cohesiveness* *Leadership* *a common cause***

    ***In a gunfight your expected to be an active participant in your own rescue***

    The effective range of an excuse is ZERO Meters

  13. #73
    Boolit Man

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    147

    Observations

    Quote Originally Posted by Molly View Post
    Thanks Farmer, I particularly value input from actual experiences, and your contribution sure fills that bill.

    A couple of notes, if I may. I once read a similar commentary from an intern in a big city hospital ER. I was struck with his note that if someone came in who'd been shot with a 9mm, the staff could generally save them. If they'd been shot with a 38 special, they generally couldn't. He then commented that he carried the .38 special.

    And while I recognize that any caliber will produce ocassional failures that are hard to understand, I have to scratch my head when people who advocate loads like the 125g 357 you reported on, but sneer at a .312 bullet only 5 or 10 grains lighter at about the same speed, but having better sectional density (read: better penetration) due to a meager (0.357 - 0.312 =) 0.045 inch diameter difference. I can see that the larger slug could average better stopping power than the .32, but I don't see that the difference is likely to be as large as some folks seem to think.

    Thanks too, for the comment that wounds to the head from the .22 LR are generally effective via knockouts. I've still got a lot of Big Bore mentality, and will have to think on that one. I do not doubt your word, but I suppose I lack confidence in myself to be calm and cool enough to aim for the forehead when TSHTF and someone is threatening or actively trying to harm me or mine.


    I would note that medical staff - to include ER staff - are not often the best people to glean firearms knowledge from. From my experience, an awful lot of these people simply have little or no real firearms expertise and it seems an unusually high percentage are anti-gun. Further, I suspect ERs have their own folklore and mythology, as does virtually any working environment.

    Other than possibly identifying .22 entrance wounds, I'd suspect no doctors or nurses would be able to tell the difference between .38 Spl and 9mm wounds...or any other handgun caliber...in the ER environment. This usually requires significant forensics or autopsy examination.

    Further complicating the picture is that a surprising number of police officers aren't very knowledgeable about firearms, either. I can easily imagine scenarios where, for example, a victim is shot with any caliber revolver. Cops on the scene - and in the immediate confusion - see a revolver. This is translated into "a .38." One cop is talking shop with an ER nurse or doctor - who is completely clueless - and mentions that the victim was shot with a .38 and this becomes incorporated into the ER mythology. It would not matter if the actual wound was caused by a .32, .44 Spl. or a .44 Mag!

    Similarly, how on Earth is an ER Doc going to tell the difference between a 9mm wound and a .40 S&W wound, especially if the bullet isn't in the patient's body? Even assuming the bullet is found in the ER, I suspect few doctors are going to be able to immediately identify it.

    The ER docs are concerned with saving the patient. Their interests in what bullet caused the trauma would be tangential at best.

    Best regards
    Doc

  14. #74
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    US, Wash, PA
    Posts
    4,867
    Quote Originally Posted by Dannix View Post
    Perhaps that was bird shot? Maybe even if it was something heavier, it may have been from a longer barrel and had no chance to spread at all? You know for sure that it was 12ga?

    Does it really matter?

    No one wants to visit the ugliness of this type of scenario in their mind. The images are so terrible that we pay others to provide our safety and have since long ago. This "warm fuzzy" will put "your" mind at ease (in an unprepared state) so that you can avoid the nasty reality of REALITY of addressing / planning for what it takes from you for self preservation.

    Want to trust a big gun? Fine, entirely natural. Is it with you now? Will it be with you then? Then what good is it? Better to have a small gun in your pocket and do the mean, terrible, and nasty things required to make it work. Then if you have the bigger one, you are ready huh?
    Evaluate everything you read for safety and use common sense.

  15. #75
    Banned 45 2.1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Little Egypt, Part of the political fifedom of Chicago
    Posts
    7,099
    Quote Originally Posted by Molly View Post
    Well 45 2.1, It sounds like you have information that a lot of us would like to hear. Write us a magazine article.
    No................................



    Quote Originally Posted by Bret4207 View Post
    No, that just lets the bad guys in on more ideas. It's pretty well known these days what will go through street level body armor. No need to put more ideas in the heads of those who would do harm.
    I would have to agree with Bret here.

  16. #76
    Moderator Emeritus/Boolit Master in Heavens Range
    Molly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    South Charleston, WV
    Posts
    1,130
    Quote Originally Posted by gray wolf View Post
    Can't get my mind off that 45 ACP that only went through one milk jug ????????? I have done many Milk jug tests and have gotten penetration through Three (3) jugs every time, and thats with the jugs standing up rite. If my math is correct that's about 18" penetration.
    Hi Wolf,

    I have to admit raising my eyebrows when I read that, but I took it at face value because I'd never run that test. But it's what the article reports. I dunno. Maybe he had some old WWI ammo, or maybe his milk jugs have inch thick walls and bottoms.

    FWIW, Dale53 and I are accumulating pop bottles and milk jugs for our own tests as soon as the weather is decent. (It may be a month or two. Dale suffers badly from serious freezophobia!) I'm sure he will want to include one of his 45's in the test, and I'll post our results when we get them done.
    Regards,

    Molly

    "The remedy for evil men is not the abrogation of the rights of law abiding citizens. The remedy for evil men is the gallows." Thomas Jefferson

  17. #77
    Boolit Master


    MakeMineA10mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Central Illinois
    Posts
    2,179
    This seems to be a polite and intelligent stopping power discussion disguised as a thread about the 32 Long!

    As far as stopping power goes, a lot of people have made a LOT of really good points so far. Not much in the way of bad information or mis-information that I can see. That's impressive for a stopping power thread that's made it to four pages!

    I've been a Dpty Coroner now for 11 years, and have seen my fair share of shootings. The majority are self-inflicted, but a significant number have not been. I've also attended the autopsies and had the benefit of our lead forensic pathologist being a gun-guy, resulting in a lot of educational discussions and deeper investigation into the GSWs we had on the morgue table than is probably given by the usual pathologist.

    That all said, I can tell you a few principles that I've learned:

    1) It's the rare person who has anywhere near enough experience with real shootings to have this all figured out. I sure don't, and I suggest you regard with a strong dose of skepticism and suspicion anyone who does.
    (That said, my opinion of Dr. Fackler is that he WAS on the right track. When he started, he identified three principles about stopping power: 1-shot placement - hits to CNS = instant incapacitation, hits to heart/aorta/vena cava/carotid = near-instant incapacitation, hits anywhere else equals whatever time it takes for that wound to bleed; 2-psychological factors - he cited an incident from the old west where a person was hit in the leg with a survivable wound but died soon thereafter due to believing he would die as well as several other incidents where people did not give up, even though they had devastating wounds and lived; 3-Bleed-out - based on the third aspect of the shot-placement issue, he started measuring bullets' permanent wound channels and penetration distances. Because shot placement is beyond his control [in the control of the shooter] and psychological effects were beyond his control [in the control of the shootee] or quantification [because no one can quantify it], he focused only on what he could quantify, which is wound ballistics. In turn this has become so overblown that the other two principles have been lost out of sight, and all anyone talks about is wound cavity... I still respect his work and his opinions, but their not the be-all, end-all "gospel" of stopping power.)

    2) Because of all the unknowns, I don't believe 100% in any of the current standards of measuring stopping power. Permanent Wound Channel, Energy transfer, etc., all have some basis in fact and are measurable, but witness enough shootings, and it won't take long to learn that these "principles" don't apply almost as much as they seem to apply. Not very good statistical proof, is it?

    3) Due to all of these experiences, I fall into agreement with most tactical (real life law enforcement, not tacticool) trainers I've worked with in law-enforcement: shoot as big a caliber as you can carry and shoot well, watch the front site and keep it on the center of mass (because bad hits are always better than fast/unaimed misses), keep shooting until the threat is gone. These do not solve every problem, but they come as close as we can with a handgun, which leads to point number 4:

    4) If I know I'm going into a fight, I use: at close range, a shotgun with medium-sized buckshot (#1); or at long-range, a rifle. Handguns need not apply. They are compromises we carry, because we can't always have a long-gun on us. (And, that leads me back to the "alleged" real point of this thread... )


    As far as the 32 Long goes, there have been numerous posts already that make really good sense, including the mentality of getting shot back in those days (fear of being shot and dying a slow death from infection was more important than actual incapacitation value, at least in civilized nations), the purpose of marking "fleeing felons," and a few others. There are a few points I'd make that I haven't seen so far (but I read this long thread kind-of quickly, so apologies if I missed it):

    A) People were smaller way back when. I remember my granpa and great uncles and aunts all being smaller than my dad and later generations. I've seen some good data correlating this to modern changes in health care and quality of food (inherently, storage, and preparation) which happened to occur around WWII. Smaller people means a smaller caliber is just as effective. 32s back in the 10s and 20s were probably ubiquitous for the same reason 38s were in the 50s and 60s in law enforcement work... (Note that 38s became more popular with the rise of organized crime during prohibition and the depression. That's when the firepower war started between LE and bad-guys. That transition from victorian era to gangster era is also why the early gangsters wore suits and tried real hard to look like businessmen -- they were still trying to fit into the waning victorian convictions, because "lying low" was smart then, just as today...)

    B) My wife and I both have past relatives who were in law enforcement in that time period, and the mentality of law enforcement was different back then too. Nowadays people call us because the neighbor's dog is barking and annoying them. Back in the old days, people would go over and talk to the neighbor. (What a concept!!) Not to mention this was the Victorian era when societally people were much more concerned with behaving in a "civilized" manner. In that society and law enforcement atmosphere, police had a more laissez faire attitude and only got involved when really needed. Somebody was fighting down at the bar? Well, as long as it wasn't an ambush and the people weren't hurting others or each other too bad, it was hands off... Kind of like a referee at a hockey game; only stepping in when it was really needed. In that kind of atmosphere, police attitudes were not as equipment oriented or intervention oriented as things are today. Therefore, the need for a "cannon" wasn't seen as very necessary.

    C) Most police agencies which carried 32s were Eastern-US, which also feeds into the point above, as the eastern US was seen as "civilized" and not needing the strong interventionism... In addition, one cannot discount the factor the powers-in-charge would think about their troops opening fire with large-caliber weapons in a city. Wouldn't want the officers shooting at a bad guy hitting two kids in the tennament across the way because that big ol' 45 bullet just keeps on plowing through... This is in contrast to a lot of the Western US, where it was the tail-end of the "wild west" and a lot of officers still carried 45 SAAs. (See Elmer Keith's "Hell, I was there" for a good description of a shoot-out in Montana in the late 1800s.)

    D) In addition to a lot of the ballistics comments already made by others, I would pull you back to thinking about the effect of a soft-lead bullet. That was the JHP of the 1800s and early 1900s. Still would expand, even at slow velocities. This made the 32 Long from back then more like a 38 Short w/ hardcast bullets we might shoot today -- both would cut about the same path in a body... (But of course, the 38 Short was loaded with soft bullets back in those days, too...) So, there is some genuine stopping power benefits to the 32 there that go beyond what we might think considering most of shoot fairly hard WW boolits today (hard enough at least that they won't expand without HPs at the slow velocities of 800fps or less).


    In conclusion, I think the 32 Long was a good cartridge for it's application (Eastern US, metropolitan police and self-defense work) and it's day (when people were smaller and attitudes were different - both as far as being civilized and the fear of being shot and dying a horribly slow death from infection). Today, so many of these factors are gone that it's not as good a choice. No doubt, the 32 Long can be compared and contrasted with any modern caliber, based on measurable/quantifiable data, however, the question then becomes how effective are these comparisons to correlate to real stopping power effectiveness? Unquestionably, I don't want to be shot, even by a 22 CB cap, but if I'm getting shot no matter what, I'd choose to be shot with the weakest cartridge possible...

    In my opinion, I'd carry the biggest thing you can. If I was planning on going into a close-range fight, it would be a 12ga to 20ga medium to small buckshot load (velocity is not important, so "tactical buck" is OK), Long range fight, a rifle, probably something 6.5 to 30 caliber, though my preference would be an intermediate cartridge, like the 6.8SPC or 7.62x39. Carrying a handgun is, IMO, a compromise. It is carried because you can't take a shotgun or rifle to the Friday night football game... Therefore, it depends on what you can conceal. I carry a range of firearms from a 45ACP Glock 21 or 10mm Glock 20 down to a Ruger LCP in 380. Just my opinion again, but I can get a 9mm Glock 26 in the same space as I can a 32 revolver, so I'd choose the G26 over that 32, but that's just me. If you have extra-confidence with your 32 which gives you an advantage in hitting the target, than there's nothing wrong with that choice. Again, I'd carry very soft bullets, perhaps 1 in 25 tin to lead, in a design as heavy as possibly with still being able to get to 750fps, and with a flat point.

    Whew! I gotta go lie down now...
    Last edited by MakeMineA10mm; 01-02-2011 at 04:29 PM.
    Group Buy Honcho for: 9x135 Slippery, 45x200 Target (H&G68), 45x230 Gov't Profile, 44x265 Keith


    E-mail or PM me if you have one of the following commemorative Glocks you'd like to sell: FBI 100yr, Bell Helo, FOP Lodge1, Kiowa Warrior, SCI, and any new/unknown-to-me commemoratives.

  18. #78
    Boolit Master


    fecmech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Buffalo NY area
    Posts
    3,741
    Quote Originally Posted by Molly View Post
    Hi Wolf,

    I have to admit raising my eyebrows when I read that, but I took it at face value because I'd never run that test. But it's what the article reports. I dunno. Maybe he had some old WWI ammo, or maybe his milk jugs have inch thick walls and bottoms.

    FWIW, Dale53 and I are accumulating pop bottles and milk jugs for our own tests as soon as the weather is decent. (It may be a month or two. Dale suffers badly from serious freezophobia!) I'm sure he will want to include one of his 45's in the test, and I'll post our results when we get them done.
    Molly--Many years ago a friend let me use his Lyman "Devastator" 185 gr .45 mold. It has a huge cavity and unknown to me was designed as I understand it for WW metal. I cast some HP's out of 30/1 lead/tin and loaded them over a stiff charge of Unique that the manual said was about 1000 fps. I shot them through plastic gallon jug with a piece of cardboard a couple feet behind to get an idea of the expansion due to bullet hole size. Shot 2 jugs cause I did not believe the first. I found both bullets about an inch in diameter on the ground a couple feet behind the cardboard. It appears they just had enough oomph after exiting the jug to go through 1 layer of cardboard!
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
    - C. S. Lewis

  19. #79
    Boolit Master
    9.3X62AL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Redlands, NorKifornia
    Posts
    11,166
    Heckuva post, MMA10mm! Full agreement here.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  20. #80
    Boolit Master
    rintinglen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    HB, CA, FOR NOW
    Posts
    4,143
    In the Civil war, perhaps people were smaller, my Great Grandfather was 5'5 1/2" tall when he enlisted in the Wisconsin 2nd Cavalry. But the avaerage height of the american enlistee during WW I was 5 ' 9", almost exactly the same as it was for the average draftee during the Vietnam War. Americans have gotten fatter, not taller, at least during the 20th century.
    And I'm certainly proof of that.

Page 4 of 28 FirstFirst 1234567891011121314 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check