The .32 S&W Long as a man-stopper

[Don Fischer]

Not saying the 32 long won't do it but I believe there are better choices. My choice is for 9mm or bigger. Kind of like shooting the cow, shoot right circumstances, a 22 LR drop's a cow in it's tracks!

[gilgsn]

Hello,

Indeed the Europeans have always loved their 7.62mm (.32) handguns. They do like small calibers, and the reasons are cultural, not ballistic. I am French born and raised but lived in the United States for twenty two years, so I think I can explain the differences. There is no gun culture in Europe like in the U.S. Not to say there isn't any, but there is also no "bigger is better" attitude, even if in some cases, like self-defense calibers (and a few other things), it is true. Killing is also very much frowned upon in Europe. Just compare American vs European film body counts... Self-defense is basically not allowed. If you shoot an armed home intruder and you don't have the strength of character for what comes next, you might as well use your .32 to shoot yourself in the head. I won't get into politics, but let's just say I've been back in France for less than three months and I already want to leave. I'm just loading up on cheese and wine right now But back to small calibers... I remember old catalogs at my grandparent's house with .25 and .32 handguns you could just mail order. The ,32s were the "big bores." Handgun hunting isn't allowed here so those were indeed for self defense, but not necessarily killing. You can't carry a handgun in the woods, so large caliber revolvers aren't especially needed. Today, if you go to the range with anything bigger than a .357, you might be called a "cowboy," and although many will gather and want to shoot your .44 mag, others will laugh at you or complain about the noise. "Shooting is for sport, so a .38 special is enough..." You can't even buy guns here without membership in a shooting club and mandatory regular attendance. If a cop shoots and kills some robber, he is in big trouble and the perp better have been shooting at him with a full auto AK, otherwise everyone is going to ask "why didn't he simply shoot him in the leg?" They of course have no understanding of terminal ballistics or self defense, it's not in their culture. Also, a smaller cartridge costs less than a bigger one, so calibers her are chosen by accountants. Keep in mind that a few decades ago there was no internet to spread data and since there are few shootings in Europe, nobody has any clue about what works. The French police went from mouse guns to .357 mags once but that didn't last long, though some special units still use it. My uncle and grandfather were cops. My grandfather used his gun once, to shoot a rabid dog, and the cartridges had been in it for so many years, they didn't all fire. My uncle used his gun only once in his career as well, at the range. He never shot it again, not even once for training... I am pretty sure neither knew what caliber gun they carried... So, I wouldn't use the fact that .32s were/are popular in Europe as any indication of their efficiency, at all. As to the military, well, a wounded enemy uses up more resources than a dead one, so strategically it is better to wound than to kill, so small calibers would be more effective that way.

Me, I like the .45 Colt, but I can't even speak my native French without an American accent anymore, so...

Gil.

[Outpost75]

Gil,

My friend Giorgio, aka "Buffalo George in Italy says much the same as you do. He is an active boar hunter and competes in steel challenge and cowboy matches, so he favors the Uberti clones of the Colt Single-Action, Winchester '92, or the M1911 and Winchester '97 pump gun for his "Wild Bunch" character.

He prefers the .45-70 for boar hunting, but a .44 Magnum rifle is sometimes used.

While I greatly enjoyed by visit shooting several matches in Italy, it makes me appreciate that where I live in West Virginia I can shoot an M1 Garand on my own property at steel targets, walk out the door and go hunting or fishing, and can carry a pistol all the time, almost anywhere, except into a courthouse, post office, school or other government building. After June 6 of this year, people who are not otherwise "prohibited possessors" will be able to carry a concealed handgun in West Virginia without a permit being required.

I think that the June 6 date, being the date of the Normandy landings, where many long lost relatives who were members of the 29th Infantry Division, and one being a member of a Jedburgh team who fought and died to liberate your country from tyranny. See also http://dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a272929.pdf

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[gun toting monkeyboy]

With the advent of the .327 Federal Magnum eight years ago, one would think that the ammunition manufacturers would "think outside the box" and load both the .32 S&W Long and .32 H&R Magnum to their fullest potential and garner as much revenue as they could from the Federal Magnum's "parent" cartridge(s). It would only makes sense to do so. Why they haven't done this, I'm not certain.

It's what you get when you cross an elephant with a rhinoceros... an "Elifino"!

The reason they don't load those cartridges anywhere near their potential is the same reason American 8x57 Mauser loads are so light. People are stupid. And there are too many guns out there that the rounds would fit in that just can't handle the increased pressure. Not only do you have many of the top-break .32 S&W guns out there that have chambers drilled straight through the cylinder so that a .32 S&W long would fit in, but you also have other common guns that ARE chambered for either .32 S&W Long or .32 H&R Magnum that just aren't up to any added pressure. Even the modern ones, like the H&R revolvers that were the original revolvers for the H&R Magnum round, aren't up for the increased pressures. And no amount of labeling is going to help that. There are just too many people out there that will put rounds in a firearm regardless of what is written on the box. And then they will turn around and sue the ammo maker. The Gew 1888 hasn't been made since 1895, and American ammo makers are still leery of it. Considering how many cheap .32 caliber guns are out there, I don't blame them for not wanting to risk making better .32 rounds either.

That being said, I am glad that some of the boutique ammo makers have taken up the challenge. Both for .32 S&W Long, and .38 S&W. There are a lot of good, solid-frame guns out there in both calibers that would still make decent self-defense weapons with suitable ammunition. I also like the fact that they aren't going with Jacketed Hollow Points, which are a huge mistake at the velocities and pressures these cartridges work at. Far better to go for a hole cut straight through, or a heavy-for-caliber bullet that penetrates, tumbles, and dumps all of its energy in the target. I know it isn't as sexy as an all-copper bullet that sprouts razor-sharp petals and turns them into dogfood on the inside. But they do make deep holes, and cut tissue all they way through. A .32 S&W Long revolver may not be my first choice for self defense, but I wouldn't feel unarmed if I had to use one. 5-6 .30 caliber holes is enough to ruin anybody's day.

-Mb

[9.3X62AL]

Gilgsn--

Thank you for the insights into European mindsets concerning weaponcraft and defense. It seems that at least some of those ideations are taking root in the USA, sadly enough.

I have appreciated the "Less is more" capabilities of the 32 S&W Long and its step-child the 32 H&R Magnum for a long time. Both calibers suffer from being loaded to "Least common denominator" levels, which limits their use afield or as defensive tools if the user is so minded. A 95-100 grain bullet at 700-725 FPS from my 6" New Police will dispatch small game and varmints fairly well, but running the same bullet 200 FPS faster in the 32 Mag flattens trajectory--nearly doubles the engagement range potential--and doesn't tear up the hasenpfeffer. Such loads are SUPERB field cartridges. How large a niche that such a demand takes up is open to question, in an era beset with Linebaugh Mastodon Flatteners and high-capacity stutterguns. Those beasts are fine tools and they have a definite place at the table, but they tend to put smaller and more tractable platforms in the shade. That's a shame.

[stu1ritter]

I've agreed with the large meplat hole puncher for some time and had some molds made up by Tom at Accurate. Far left is .32 S&W Long and next to it .32 H&R. There are loaded fairly warm for carry purposes. The other two are .38 Spc and .44 Mag.

Stu

[Earlwb]

Isn't the .32 S&W Long still popular as a target pistol cartridge? Years ago I used to own a semi-automatic pistol designed to fire only .32 S&W Long wadcutter rounds. I regret selling the pistol as it was a really good shooter. The pistol would probably last forever with the mild low speed .32's it fired. Here in the USA you had to handload your cartridges as they weren't really importing them at the time. I used to cast and lube the wadcutter bullets at the time for it when reloading the cases. heck the cases probably would last forever reloading too, very low pressure. Anyway I haven't seen anything about them recently so I don't know if they still use it in competitions or not.

Here is a example of one of the target pistols, this one is a Benelli model.

[gilgsn]

Hello, another reason that the small calibers are popular in Europe is that not only are large calibers frowned upon, but many ranges are either indoors, in the middle of cities or the back stops are not strong enough to stop powerful calibers. One range I visited had strict noise limitations, surprisingly allowing lead bullets only for that reason, as if they would be quieter.. I still haven't quite grasped the logic behind it.. The club I signed up with has flimsy thin steel slats down range that can only stand up to low power rounds.. Emphasis in Europe is on sports and competitions, and there is no logical need for, say, a .357 mag. Handgun hunting is prohibited and self defense will land you in prison, so a .32 is a cheap accurate and quiet low power round... Some day, sooner than later, we'll probably be allowed only air rifles and pistols... That day I'll leave, but hopefully sooner...

[gilgsn]

That said, anywhere handgun hunting is allowed, the various .32s IMHO are excellent rounds for small game hunting. Nobody wants to turn a rabbit into a fur/meat/bone mixture with a super fast bullet, but a slow .32 wad cutter will take care of most anything big enough for a good meal for two... I wouldn't mind a SAA copy in .32-20 myself..

Gil

[Thumbcocker]

I think that there are also military cultural differences concerning handguns in the US vs. other nations. From my reading and talking to some veterans I get the feeling that the U.S. army has always been pretty pistol heavy and favored large calibers. In reading some civil war memoirs writers talk about buying revolvers when they enlisted(some didn't get to keep them if the commander was opposed). Calvary troopers had Colt SAA's I'm not sure about Indian war era infantry units.


Skeeter Skelton wrote about a conspiracy to get a commercial 1911 to a service member from his small town in Texas who was serving in the Pacific in World War 2. Skeeter also wrote about his own unofficial revolvers being discovered when he was in the Marines. He also did an article called "Sidearm for a Soldier" in response to questions from readers about to ship out to Vietnam. Eugene Sledge had a nonissued .45 acp revolver during his time in the Pacific.

I have heard about at least one Glock 17 that magically appeared for a Marine in Gulf War one when he thought his unit was going to be doing house to house fighting in Kuwait.


The impression I get is that there were two classes of grunts when it came to handguns those that had one and those that wanted one.

[Earlwb]

Hello, another reason that the small calibers are popular in Europe is that not only are large calibers frowned upon, but many ranges are either indoors, in the middle of cities or the back stops are not strong enough to stop powerful calibers. One range I visited had strict noise limitations, surprisingly allowing lead bullets only for that reason, as if they would be quieter.. I still haven't quite grasped the logic behind it.. The club I signed up with has flimsy thin steel slats down range that can only stand up to low power rounds.. Emphasis in Europe is on sports and competitions, and there is no logical need for, say, a .357 mag. Handgun hunting is prohibited and self defense will land you in prison, so a .32 is a cheap accurate and quiet low power round... Some day, sooner than later, we'll probably be allowed only air rifles and pistols... That day I'll leave, but hopefully sooner...

There are ranges designed for smaller caliber guns. The backstops aren't designed to handle anything too large in bore size or power. we do have some ranges here in the USA like that too. A .357 Magnum is pushing the limits with them. Anything more powerful is not allowed. I can see lead only bullets too. Some ranges here ban full metal jacket bullets as the bullets tear up the backstops more and mess up the lighting and wiring too. Plus some ranges refuse to let you shoot a military gun as well. Sometimes specific types are banned (such as Mosin Nagants, etc). Then of course steel core bullets or steel jacketed bullets aren't allowed anymore due to fire hazards and that the bullets can damage or pierce through the backstops too. Sometimes the range insurance policy has the restrictions in it as well.

[9.3X62AL]

I think an East Coast importer still brings in Walther GSP-C target self-loaders in 32 SWL WC, though their prices are aristocratic in the extreme. I had the use of one for a few months many years ago, and it was a tackdriver. I gave some thought to having one of the custom 'smiths open out a Single-Six to 32 SWL, but that work would run about neck-and-neck with price of a GSP-C or one of the few original Model 16s. I am largely resigned to buying an SP-101 or Single-Seven, and brushing out chambers after running short cases. PITA job in my Model 16-4, though.

[Outpost75]

As FYI Accurate has a new heavy bullet for the .32 ACP and .32 S&W Long which has the same 0.2 meplat and nose shape as the Buffalo Bore bullet, but in a heavier 90-grain weight. Overall cartridge length is 0.95" in .32 ACP brass and 1.18" in .32 S&W Long brass. Because the .32 ACP is a semi-rimmed cartridge, this bullet does have a crimp groove, should you want to use it.

The 90-grain weight also makes it a good choice for fixed sight .32 S&W Long revolvers and in .32 ACP permits approaching .380 ACP energy with #2400 powder. Based on Alliant data a charge of 5.6 grains of #2400 is about 800 fps and within normal pressure for the .32 S&W Long.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...id=60&oal=1.28

I have been using the same 5.6 grain charge of #2400 with 31-087T in my .32 ACPs and plan on trying likewise with this bullet when the mold arrives. Velocity in the Beretta Tomcat is about 850 fps and in the Walther PP a bit over 900 fps. A charge of 2 grains of Bullseye gives 830 fps for practice.

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[Earlwb]

I recently bought a little KelTec P32 handgun. I thought it was fairly cute actually. But it is the same size as the modern small .380's and weighs a little more too. But it basically has the recoil of a .22LR pistol. Very mild on recoil and actually quite fun to shoot. It was a lot more accurate that I expected it to be too. I still have a Dryse .32 that I got many years ago. But I haven't tried shooting it yet. I will have to take it out and see if it works or not. I also bought a box of 500 .311 size bullets for a .32 at Cabelas recently when they had them on sale. So I can reload for it as desired too. I still have a H&R .32 mag revolver with a 7.5" barrel that is fun to shoot too.

I forget if it was mentioned earlier here. But the US Army used to issue the .32 Colt automatic pistols to the general staff for use. Generals usually didn't need to shoot anything so they didn't get the regular M1911 handguns like everyone else in the military got. If I remember right the US Marine generals still carried M1911's though.

[9.3X62AL]

Over the years, I have had about a dozen each of both 32 ACP and 380 ACP self-loaders. Viewed in toto, their caliber-respective cumulative accuracy potentials GREATLY favor the 32 over the 380. There are no 380s at my house, and there haven't been for close to 15 years. The 9mm Makarov puts the caliber in the shade power-wise, and the 32 ACP is far more accurate. Two 32 ACP pistols live at my house now, and will until I check out. It is too good a caliber to not keep around.

[tejano]

The last two .380's at my house, both Berettas, I suppose are still here because the barrels are in a drawer somewhere. But both were converted to .32 acp via barrel swaps years ago. An East German Mak took the place of my .380's. There is also a Ruger G100 327 Fed, a Ruger Sp101 327 Fed, a S&W M30, and a Charter Arms 32 H&R Mag. Finally, there is a Contender carbine in 32 H&R Mag.

[Earlwb]

I remember seeing a number of videos posted on YouTube about the .32 ACP and how well it did in various scenarios for penetration, etc. So it could work fairly well depending on the situation. Granted we in the USA lean towards the more is better approach. But maybe the other countries that issued and used them weren't all that terribly wrong about it. Some of the modern bullet designs might help it out more too.

I don't remember if I posted a pic of it, but here is my H&R Model 586 with 7.5 inch barrel chambered in .32 H&R Magnum. It is quite fun to shoot, even with the magnum rounds the recoil is low. Granted it is pretty big in size thus not exactly a SD type of gun, but it is awesome as a rabbit hunting gun though.

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[Outpost75]

Back in the day, clever folks made file-type meplat trimmers to cut about 5-1/2 grains off the nose of .32 S&W Long rounds, turning them into a .32 Colt New Police. It is easy to make such a die from a piece of scrap .30 cal. rifle barrel. Just the thing for somebody lives in a place like Mexico or India and is permitted only to have a .32 revolver and isn't allowed to have handloading equipment or components. Make the most of what you have.
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[BAGTIC]

.32's had much more deterrent effect in the days before antibiotics. Just being hit with anything that punctured the body cavity was often tantamount to a death sentence. Nowadays with ambulances, emergency rooms, x-rays, MRI and the latest medicines all standing by at the taxpayer's expense some are more willing to risk getting shot.

[Frank V]

It's been ineresting reading this thread. I've only seen the .32 used for target shooting, but have shot up to the .327 mag. in .32 caliber. The .32-20 is a LOT of fun in a rifle.
Still for myself I prefer something larger to protect myself with. There are huge culture differences in countries & it looks like the reason the .32s are so popular in Europe are largely culture reasons. Still it's an effective fun ctg. & I'd hate to see it go away. I just would choose something larger for defense.
Thanks.