The .32 S&W Long as a man-stopper

[Dale53]

longranger;
I have one comment regarding the well thought out post:

AMEN!!

Dale53

P.S. Molly and I DID meet and had a delightful day. rdm

[9.3X62AL]

Thank you for the kind words, gentlemen. They mean a great deal, coming from men whose opinions and beliefs I hold in high regard.

[9.3X62AL]

Dale--

Chronography of LOTS of factory 32 ACP FMJ RN loads shows their published ballistics to be very optimistic. John Browning spec'd the caliber for 905 FPS, but a lot of modern-day USA-made ammo barely meets or beats 750 FPS. Perhaps that accounts for the indifferent penetration you saw in those planks.

I've run Remington bulk 71 grain FMJs to 900 FPS from the Walther PP. These duplicate the ballistics of some GECO rounds I scrounged up a while back. The GECOs went through 1/2" plywood without much fuss or bother, as did the reloads. Part of the issue is loading the ammo to its full potential, whether it be 32 ACP or 32 S&W Long. Any decent 32 SWL should be able to run an RCBS 98 SWC to 900 FPS without strain.

Before having a mould cut for my mostly intellectual exercise in 32 ACP, I plan to try some boolits in the 32 ACP that have REALLY done well for me in 30 Luger and 30 Mauser/7.62 Tok. That boolit is the Lyman #311419, a flat-nosed 92 grainer with gas-check (which is gratuitously superfluous in the 32 ACP). Mostly, I'm curious about getting it to feed reliably in order to use it for field work on small vermin. The square shoulder of #311252 seems to dispatch jackrabbits handily when run at 900 FPS, in spite of its promiment round nose.

I remain under no illusions of any huge net gain in lethality from all this boolit black magic. These mid-calibers are--my view--too much of a compromise favoring portability over projectible lethality. For me, anyway. Other folks have a right to their views, and I respect them.

[Dale53]

Al;
Major General Julian Hatcher suggested that a flat nose bullet would gain about 25% in lethality (everything else being equal). That agrees with much of what I have seen on small game.

I have a couple of home made "nose flatteners" for the .22 Rimfire as well as a complete set of Paco Kelly's nose formers and can testify that they greatly increase lethality on that sad little round. Before you .22 lovers jump all over me, hear me out. I have shot tens of thousands of .22 rimfire in smallbore competition and silhouette competition as well as a good bit of small game hunting with them.

When I have hunted edible small game, I was interested in quick, humane, kills without a lot of wasted meat. High speed hollow points would kill well but tended to seriously damage game when it was necessary to take body shots. The solid, round noses, were TERRIBLE as far as game getting ability. Using one of the home made tools (like used to be supplied by Hanned Precision) would dramatically increase the lethality without serious meat loss.

Larger revolver and pistol bullets work the same way, as most of us would agree.

I consider a good .32 SWL with a proper Keith bullet at 900 fps to be a DANDY edible small game gun. So much so, that I have at least four high quality .32's with adjustable sights, scopes or Red Dots on them.

On the other hand, I have found that bullets as big as .44's and .45's can successfully be used without horrible meat loss. Many a bunny or grouse has proven that to me. I can think of no more sporting activity than small game with a proper handgun (pistol, load, bullet and velocity benefit from serious thinking in this regard).

If the truth be known, other than our personal prejudices (yeah, I have them too) the "lowly" .38 Special wadcutter target load makes a FINE edible small game load. For ground hogs, however, a good .38+P, .357 Magnum or even a .44 Special works much better. Ground hogs seem to take a LOT of killing - all out of proportion to their size.

Our new hollow point bullets from our own Cast Boolit bullet mould people (Mihec, NOE, etc) should be just the medicine for these tougher varmints..

FWIW
Dale53

[Bret4207]

Lotta truth in that last post Uncle Dale. I've done quite a bit of pest control on porkies, woodchucks, raccoon, skunks, etc using the 32S+W and 32 S+W Long from #6 and #4 Remington rifles. Even with the long barrels the RN factory stuff is anemic, much like the standard 22 LR RN. When I started using a FN at about the same speed I saw a marked increase in DRT type kills, much more humane too.

I think there's a lot to be said for the lowly FN lead alloy boolits in 25 to 35 cal. in the small game field.

[Dale53]

Bret4207;
I have spent quite a bit of time in the field with a Marlin lever action 25/20. I was one of the lucky ones who got one of the modern Marlins when they first came out. I immediately got a Lyman 457420 flat nose mould and worked up some nice cast bullet loads at three levels.

A squirrel and rabbit load that works EXTREMELY well is 4.0 grs of Unique. It'll bring the biggest fox squirrel out of the tallest tree with body shots EVERY time. I will take a head shot when offered but frankly, there are times when no head shot is offered.

An excellent medium load for me has been 11.0 grs of Reloader #7. This is an excellent general purpose and practice load.

I also worked up a "high velocity" load equal to the old, original high velocity load. It is 14.0 grs of RL-7. It is a compressed load and suitable only for modern, strong action rifles. However, it chronographs at near 2200 fps with the 257420 GC out of linotype.

It shoots, also. All three loads will stay in the fifty yard smallbore target ten ring (not a high "X" count but tens all day) at fifty yards. That ten ring measures at .87".

The 25/20 does all of this without waking someone in the next county, too...

The flat nose does all of this fine work on small game. Nearly all of my hunting has been done with the low velocity load. Excellent killing power, relatively low noise, and truly pleasant shooting.

Back on topic...

FWIW
Dale53

[9.3X62AL]

Good points on the flat-nose terminal effects vs. RN on critters. I hope the #311419s feed through the Walther well.

[Bret4207]

Al, did I ever tel ya about the $150.00 Nazi marked PP I passed up a few years back? Yeah, $150.00. Yeah, I know I was stupid. Yeah, I know I was really, really stupid. That's why I never mentioned it.

Somewhere in my reading I found a reference to some 'smith back in the 50's that used to make a 6" barrel and slide combo for the PP. THAT would have been THE RIG to have IMO.

[Dark Helmet]

"One of my back-burner projects involves having a semi-custom mould made up for the 32 ACP in truncated-cone form"

How about RanchDogs 32 ACP boolit? http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/inde...products_id=19

[Texantothecore]

Does anyone know the grains of the old .41 Derringer loads?

I can't seem to find it anywhere....

[waksupi]

Does anyone know the grains of the old .41 Derringer loads?

I can't seem to find it anywhere....

Just Google it.

[koyote]

Just because it might fit in .....

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/printable/node/7866

It's an interesting look at some of the stopping power calculations

[Multigunner]

Al, did I ever tel ya about the $150.00 Nazi marked PP I passed up a few years back? Yeah, $150.00. Yeah, I know I was stupid. Yeah, I know I was really, really stupid. That's why I never mentioned it.

Somewhere in my reading I found a reference to some 'smith back in the 50's that used to make a 6" barrel and slide combo for the PP. THAT would have been THE RIG to have IMO.

Theres a conversion for the 1922 Browning that uses the .380 frame and slide with a .32 barrel with chamber reamed for a necked .32 cartridge similar to the 7.65 Luger, only shorter.

With the barrel length of the 1922 and a bit more propellent the necked cartridge gives somewhat better performance, along the lines of the .32 R&R Magnum.

If the cartridge were mass produced I might consider getting one of those barrels. The cartridge feeds from the standard .380 magazine.

[9.3X62AL]

I enjoy the 30 Luger, 30 Mauser, and 7.62 x 25 very much as field calibers for varmints. After seeing the effects of JHP bullets from these calibers run at full-potential on jackrabbits, their utility as edible game calibers indicates a flatnose FMJ or cast flatnose as better projectiles. These mid-caliber rounds running hollow-point bullets make NASTY wounds.

Which takes us to the core element of this thread--self-defense. The 30 Luger or its longer counterparts would make a DANDY defense round if loaded with 85 grain XTPs or even the old Hornady RNSP. Both show devastating effects on jacks, a thing not at all present when the 147 grain JHP sub-sonic 9mm rounds are used. Jacks hit well with the sub-sonics often require a finishing shot, a thing I found a bit inhumane and VERY disconcerting as a range officer training LEOs to go in harm's way. Now that I think on it......the ONLY times I have heard a jackrabbit distress scream was on a half-dozen or so critters hit with the sub-sonics.

[Green Frog]

Bret4207;
I have spent quite a bit of time in the field with a Marlin lever action 25/20. I was one of the lucky ones who got one of the modern Marlins when they first came out. I immediately got a Lyman 457420 flat nose mould and worked up some nice cast bullet loads at three levels.

A squirrel and rabbit load that works EXTREMELY well is 4.0 grs of Unique. It'll bring the biggest fox squirrel out of the tallest tree with body shots EVERY time. I will take a head shot when offered but frankly, there are times when no head shot is offered.

An excellent medium load for me has been 11.0 grs of Reloader #7. This is an excellent general purpose and practice load.

I also worked up a "high velocity" load equal to the old, original high velocity load. It is 14.0 grs of RL-7. It is a compressed load and suitable only for modern, strong action rifles. However, it chronographs at near 2200 fps with the 457420 GC out of linotype.

It shoots, also. All three loads will stay in the fifty yard smallbore target ten ring (not a high "X" count but tens all day) at fifty yards. That ten ring measures at .87".

The 25/20 does all of this without waking someone in the next county, too...

The flat nose does all of this fine work on small game. Nearly all of my hunting has been done with the low velocity load. Excellent killing power, relatively low noise, and truly pleasant shooting.

Back on topic...

FWIW
Dale53

Hey Dale,

I was just rereading this thread. I bet the recoil was horrendous when you tried to put that .457" slug down a .257" bore. How'd that work out for you?
I like the way the 257420 looks, but of course my 257 Perfection mould lets me make whatever weight I need. There are a couple of really nice quarter bore bullet designs out there.

Back to the thread... the advent of the .32 H&R Mag and .327 Fed Mag make midsize (frame size) .32s into potential fire breathers, but my little I-frame snubbie is not really up to that task, so I will continue to regard it as my gun when I don't have something bigger at hand. "No ma'am [I'm not expecting trouble] if I were expecting trouble I would have brought a shotgun!"

Froggie

PS Just got notice my NOE 314008 four cavity is on the way. I'm going to be shooting some sort of .32s!!

[Molly]

. . . Back to the thread... the advent of the .32 H&R Mag and .327 Fed Mag make midsize (frame size) .32s into potential fire breathers, but my little I-frame snubbie is not really up to that task, so I will continue to regard it as my gun when I don't have something bigger at hand. "No ma'am [I'm not expecting trouble] if I were expecting trouble I would have brought a shotgun!" . . .

Ustawuz, one of my favorite cracks was the one about only a fool would bring a knife to a gunfight. Now I'm older and wiser, and think that only a fool would bring just a gun to a gunfight. A wise man brings SEVERAL guns, his brother, his cousin, half the local police force and his Marine neighbor, along with a heavy bullet proof vest and a few hand grenades.

I've long held that some people only need to have things explained in terms they can understand. The linguistic potential of a 1911 slide or a Rem 870 slide dropping forward is remarkable. It is multi-linguistic, multi-cultural and requires no translator for 100 percent comprehensiveness. Everyone understands them with admirable speed and depth.

An even wiser man spends some time and effort cultivating the local LEO staff, inviting them to visit socially, go target shooting and learn how to reload their own ammo, etc. (Have I mentioned that my new home is going to be literally just across the street from a LARGE State Police barracks?)

[Dale53]

Green Frog;
Whatever do you mean, Sir? (I corrected the typo)...

I'll bet you have that ol' lead pot hot and ready for that new mould, huh?

I find my .32's to be VERY satisfying handguns, indeed! I have a Model 30 S&W that I carried on occasion back in my salad days. It would not be my first choice (or even second) for self defense, but it could be a life saver if that is what you had at the time...

Dale53

[9.3X62AL]

ANY sideiron is better than NO sideiron if the excrement hits the oscillating ventilator.

I didn't respond to a couple comments above--sorry about that, y'all.

Dark Helmet--I like the form of the Ranch Dog 32 ACP boolit, but I don't use LLA, so I'll cobble something up that is Lyman 450-friendly.

Bret--You obviously were being humble and pious when that Nazi Walther crossed your path. It would be over-decadent in the extreme to have both the PP and the Model 16 in the same gun safe.

[Bret4207]

Oooo! Right through the heart Al! I've always had a soft spot for the Walther PP and PPK. Dad had a Bernadelli 22 that he used to let me play with. The trigger return spring was tweaked a bit and it would go full auto about every 3rd round. Fun as could be! It was the same thing as a Walther. Of course the 32ACP is totally useless according to every internet expert and mall ninja. That makes it perfect for me.

I seriously doubt I'll ever own one, those days of decent prices are long, long gone.

[9.3X62AL]

Roger that, ALL the 30/32 caliber handguns are useless and obsolete remnants of late 19th Century mindsets. Yessir, yessir, three bags full, sir.