The .32 S&W Long as a man-stopper

[Shooter6br]

sold my H & R 32 Long. Nice 16oz gun. Sights are bad. Could not hit the "side of a barn door" Of course the effective range of this load is have to be within bad breath range. Fun to shoot and cheap. i use 32 long in Ruger SP101 32 mag

[Molly]

OK fellows,

It's time for me to make my apologies and hit the road. I promised in good faith to conduct some water penetration / expansion tests, but we've had a century-record-breaking wet spring this year. It's so bad you can hardly step off the sidewalk in some (low) places. Short version: it's been too wet to conduct the tests as planned.

I was still hoping to get them run when (and if) it ever dries out, but I find that my wife and I have developed 'irreconsileable differences', and I expect to be preoccupied for some time with finding a new home and moving my belongings. Short version: I won't be conducting the tests.

I'm sure you guys will understand if I 'disappear' from the web site for a few weeks at a time. But Lord willing, I WILL be back - sometime.

[NoZombies]

OK fellows,

It's time for me to make my apologies and hit the road. I promised in good faith to conduct some water penetration / expansion tests, but we've had a century-record-breaking wet spring this year. It's so bad you can hardly step off the sidewalk in some (low) places. Short version: it's been too wet to conduct the tests as planned.

I was still hoping to get them run when (and if) it ever dries out, but I find that my wife and I have developed 'irreconsileable differences', and I expect to be preoccupied for some time with finding a new home and moving my belongings. Short version: I won't be conducting the tests.

I'm sure you guys will understand if I 'disappear' from the web site for a few weeks at a time. But Lord willing, I WILL be back - sometime.

Please let me know if there is anything I can do.

[9.3X62AL]

That's hard news, Molly--sorry to hear this.

[justashooter]

That's hard news, Molly--sorry to hear this.

best of luck in this unexpected life change. ring if you need, and come back mc'soon.

[Von Dingo]

Chin up Sir, sorry to hear all that.

[Molly]

OK fellows, back for just a moment. NoZombies was kind enough to pass this study on stopping power along to me, and I wanted to share it with you. Like Evan Marshall's studies, it is supposed to be the result of a very long time spent accumulating real world data. Interestingly enough, it doesn't agree at all with Mr. Marshall's publications. But it's a darn good read, and will give you some serious food for thought. Take a look:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2745992/posts

Regards,
Molly

[Molly]

OK fellows, back for just a moment. NoZombies was kind enough to pass this study on stopping power along to me, and I wanted to share it with you. Like Evan Marshall's studies, it is supposed to be the result of a very long time spent accumulating real world data. Interestingly enough, it doesn't agree at all with Mr. Marshall's publications. But it's a darn good read, and will give you some serious food for thought. Take a look:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2745992/posts

Regards,
Molly

I've been turning this over in my head, and if everyone hasn't unsubscribed, I'd like to add a few comments before I let the subject drop.

1. The reference above is VERY interesting reading, and the author seems to have done a good job, particularly since he had the integrity to report the very unexpected results that there isn't a whole lot of difference between the stopping power of the big heavy slugs and the pipsqueaks like the .22 Long Rifle.

The (paraphrased) explanation the author gives is that when someone is shot with most any caliber, they generally lose all interest in anything except the nearest doctor. And they have NO interest in being shot again, so they will generally cease and desist any activity that seems likely to result in further injury. He takes the position that stopping power of a handgun is probably at least as dependent of the reaction of the injured party as it is on the energy / caliber / bullet weight package.

2. While that seems like an eminently reasonable perspective that explains the results he reports, there is a decent history to the contrary. Guns like the SAA Colt in 44 and 45 calibers didn't get their reputation by being a lot more powerful than they needed to be. And the record of the .38 Long Colt in the Philippines against insurgents was pathetic, and the subsequent record of the 45 caliber replacement was excellent.

But it must be recalled that the 38 Long Colt was used against men who bound up their bodies to restrict blood flow (blood loss) and desensitize their muscles to painful injury. They also worked themselves up into a real emotional high before attacking. This enabled them to continue to function and fight after numerous serious injuries. The closest analogy in today's society is probably someone drunk or drugged out of their mind.

So perhaps the real answer to the question this thread presented is that almost any caliber handgun will do a respectable job of stopping the casual street thug or cat burglar. In fact, there is a substantial body of evidence that even presenting a handgun will make criminal types back off in a hurry something like 90+% of the time. That has certainly been MY experience to date. I’ve successfully resolved a number of antisocial situations, and have yet to even fire a round, much less hurt or kill anyone, though it must be admitted that this is unquestionably because on several occasions, I made it plain that I was ready to do so very quickly if things didn’t improve.

But if you think you are likely to come up against the rare individual who is drugged or drunk (feeling no pain), or someone who is highly emotional and motivated, you’d best be carrying one of the more potent calibers. Such a person may have lost the capacity for pain, fear or good judgment, and the best way to stop someone like that is probably the heavy (big bore) handgun, though none of them is totally reliable. Granted, a pipsqueak round in the central nervous system would do the job. If that’s all you have, do the best you can. At the very least, the police won’t have any trouble identifying your aggressor when he turns up at the hospital crying for treatment. But the heavier calibers can provide a performance margin that makes them more effective in marginal hits.

How much more effective they are is open to question, but simple logic says that the bigger and the deeper the hole is, the faster the shootee will pass out from loss of blood. Though the study doesn't support that conclusion, logic does.

Me? I'm pretty comfortable with a hot loaded .32 Long with a 100 or 115 grain flat nosed or semiwadcutter bullet for ordinary carry, where I don't have any particular reason to expect trouble. But if I think there is a respectable likelihood of a real need to defend myself, I'll slip my 44 Spl Bulldog in my pocket. I think I'd take my brother along too, and he favors a 357 for all purposes.

[9.3X62AL]

As a general guideline, the posted study has a lot of merit.

Being retired from cop work, if I suspect trouble is on the horizon......I now make a point of not being there when it arrives. My role now is identical to that of a citizen CCW holder.

[Bret4207]

To me the study made sense. People usually don't like getting shot. I understand it hurts quite a lot. So in the case where the attacker isn't truly motivated I imagine even a 22 or 25 would do the trick. I know for a fact a 22 looks pretty darn intimidating when it's pointed at your face from about 4 feet away.

On the Moro's and the 38 Colt/45 Colt. It was my understanding the 38 was a dismal performer on those guys and that they were drugged up on some native stimulant too. It was also my understanding that the 45 was only marginally better but was the biggest thing we had available. I don't know where I read that, Hatcher maybe or Crossman, maybe Whelen or Thomas but I do recall it was not what I had understood to be the case. Can't help but wonder now if it sort of ties in with that study, that even the best pistol/revolver round is marginal.

[Wheeler]

I have a friend that has been conducting a study for quite some time regarding caliber, gun type, and the ability to stop an aggresor. Notice I did not use the term stopping power. I'll see if I can either get a copy of his finding or better yet, get him to join the forum and post his findings.

To make a long story short, he has become a huge proponent of the lowly .22 and .32 caliber guns as a method of self-defense.

[Dale53]

What is often missing from these studies, is bullet nose shape and effect. I have never had to shoot anyone (of which I am MOST thankful) but serious use on live game from chipmunks to large whitetail deer have given me a pretty good understanding of the horribly misnamed "Stopping Power".

I was discussing the matter with Jim Cirillo one time, and he stated the only 100% stopping power he had found was a .38 Wadcutter (full velocity as issued to New York Police at one time) IN THE LEFT EYE Jim once had a gunfight in a Super Mkt and he and the bad guy were chasing each other around the store. They came face to face with oneanother around an aisle and Jim (armed with a 12 gauge riot gun loaded with Brenneke slugs) beat him to the draw, shot him from the hip at about six feet in the torso. The miscreat dropped his hands with a grunt (but not his gun). He shot him again in the torso, the bad guy dropped his gun, turned and ran. He didn't stop until he reached the "In" door. When he felt the door not opening, he fell. He expired...

During another gun fight in a super market, a miscreant was shot in the heart. He ran out of the store, and jumped in a New York Taxicab. As the cab pulled away, the cabbie stated that the suspect had his hand over his heart and a "hose" of blood spurted out everytime his heart beat. The suspect asked, "Am I going to die?" The cabbie said, "Yep! You're gonna die!" (only in New York...)

Both cases show that there is no such thing as too much power. The only 100% is the central nervous center. The old instructions for two in the chest and one in the head again come to mind...

The prudent person will carefully select the gun and caliber carefully. The most gun I can use with FULL effectiveness is a .45 ACP or Auto Rim. Using a bullet that will give 850-900 fps with as wide a meplat that is consistent with reliable operation will give the best results possible. On the other hand, as a civilian I will not burden myself with a .45 (the possible exception is my Kimber Ultra II .45 ACP with 3" barrel). I have chosen to for my daily carry a S&W Model 642 with the FBI load (158 gr H.P. at Plus P velocities). It can and will be carried on a regular basis and if I am lucky I won't have to use it. If I am unlucky enough to be forced to use it, hopefully good shooting and that combination will allow me to succeed.

Above all, you better prepare yourself with LOTS of practice to be able to shoot well under pressure. Not NEAR enough emphasis is placed on learned shooting ability.

FWIW
Dale53

[starreloader]

Dale53, you are very correct.. Learning how to handle your weapon and how to shoot in all kinds of conditions gives you the instinctive ablilty to perform under pressure... Practice, practice and more practice.. There is no other way.

[leftiye]

To make a long story short, he has become a huge proponent of the lowly .22 and .32 caliber guns as a method of self-defense.

Sooo, carry an American 180? (the devil made me do it)

[Wheeler]

To make a long story short, he has become a huge proponent of the lowly .22 and .32 caliber guns as a method of self-defense.

Sooo, carry an American 180? (the devil made me do it)

hehe, wouldn't we all like to have one. The only full-auto that I might be able to afford.

To the best of my knowledge he usually carries a Beretta 21 or a S&W Model 63 or something similar. Without beating his drum for him, he has a lot of practical experience including being the senior instructor at the Rogers shooting school for several years.

[9.3X62AL]

What Dale said. But the Walther PP x 32 ACP beats throwing rocks all hollow!

One of my back-burner projects involves having a semi-custom mould made up for the 32 ACP in truncated-cone form. A former member here and I discussed this at some length, and I would like to have such a tool made. 75 grains in weight, run at 900 FPS. I darn sure wouldn't stand downrange with a catcher's mitt to stop them.

[Dale53]

I can remember, as a teenager, having access (with full approval) of my father's guns. He was a genuine "gunny" and we worked together for all of my growing up years working with all manner of guns.

He had a VERY nice Astra .32 ACP pocket auto and I can remember doing some penetration tests with factory hardball. In a farm gate with 1" thick weathered oak boards, at point blank range the pistol would barely drive the bullet base flush with the surface of the board. I didn't believe my eyes and repeatd the test several times with similar results. On the other hand, as I remember, a .22 pistol would shoot clear through the board. Neither were terribly impressive and I lost any desire (for the past sixty years) to use either on any SERIOUS task.

I have done a lot of small game hunting in my lifetime with all manner of rifles, pistols and shotguns. I have done a bit of big game hunting (not nearly as much as many of you) but I have been in on the "autopsies" of probably 35 black bears of various sizes as well as a considerable number of deer and farm animals. I have observed and asked questions.

There are two things that are MOST important - shot placement and penetration. Without either it makes little difference what you are shooting. Shoot them around the edges and you will get BAD results. Central Nervous System and breaking bone seems to work when other areas do not - this is whether it is a chipmunk, a pigeon, or a large black bear, farm animal, or deer.

Just a thought or two...

Dale53

[Wheeler]

I'll have to eat a little crow. I talked to my friend last night and it appears that his research is more anecdotal rather than empirical. I apologise for speaking out of turn.

FWIW He cited Greg Ellifritz's study, the same that NoZombies posted although at a different location; http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http...66&h=WAQBXp9Cw

Wheeler

[Molly]

... There are two things that are MOST important - shot placement and penetration. Without either it makes little difference what you are shooting. Shoot them around the edges and you will get BAD results. Central Nervous System and breaking bone seems to work when other areas do not - this is whether it is a chipmunk, a pigeon, or a large black bear, farm animal, or deer. Just a thought or two... Dale53

Hi Dale,

I agree whole-heartedly with your comments, and if I may expand slightly on your experience, I would add bullet weight (sectional density) and bullet tip to your criteria of shot placement and penetration. I suspect that while shot placement is critical, penetration alone is only part of the remaining equation. I’d specify sectional density because it largely determines penetration, although point type obviously plays a role as well.

All else being equal, round nose or pointed bullets have a terrible record compared to flat tip bullets, and that would be my personal selection: A heavy (for the caliber), flat tip bullet at maximum velocities.

I know you favor hollow points to some extent, and I have to admit that the polygonal cavities in some of your molds are rather intimidating, at least visually. And when hollow points work, they work very well indeed: Trauma is usually extensive and incapacitating. But HPs have a record of occasionally failing to work in the clinch because the cavity gets plugged with clothing, and the usual hydraulics that open the cavity can't take effect. This is particularly true at handgun velocities, as you know.

Don't get me wrong: I'd never sneer at anyone pointing a .45 HP at me. I don't want to get shot with anything, even a pellet gun. But I'm more comfortable with a large flat meplat that will function 100 % of the time. It isn't as spectacular as a HP, but it's highly effective, and it can be relied on. Slugs like Keith designs and 3118 contours didn't get their reputations by being ineffective or unreliable. The extreme case would be the full wadcutter, which has a well deserved reputation for stopping power in spite of usually being loaded to low velocities.

On a personal note, I’m going up to AIM tomorrow, and would welcome your company if you are available sometime around 1 PM. I’ll give you a call.

[longranger]

Interesting thread. I like Ima's text concerning the dissuasion effects of ANY pistol due to the early historical medical after-effects of gunshot wounds (hereinafter "GSW"), and consider that to be a very valid observation.

Let's take that observation a bit further. These days, modern medicine can save many GSW victims that in past times would not have survived. This is general knowledge throughout our society, and the criminal element is keenly aware of these facts. I would submit that criminals rather stupidly believe that sustaining a GSW is not that serious an issue, assuming they consciously consider the possibility as a part of their threat assessment prior to an attack. No one said that crooks were very smart. This impression was gained from having interviewed hundreds of criminals over my 28 years of cop work, many of whom had sustained and survived GSWs.

One other paradigm shift that has occurred during the last century goes almost unmentioned, but I believe it to be critical to the discussion of defensive shooting preparation and training. When the state laws related to use of force to stop criminal activity/attacks were initially drafted in our country, it was generally believed that the interests of justice were well served by having both private citizens and public officers fire upon fleeing suspects believed to have committed felonious acts, irrespective of the fleeing suspects' status as being armed or not. This mindset prevailed well into the 20th Century. In effect, the citizen's or officer's firearm in such instances became little more than a marking pellet launcher, which would if accurately placed label the fleeing subject as the person sought for the crime in question. It is in these sorts of circumstances that the 32 S&W Long or 38 S&W did their best work. They identified culprits (well, sort of.....), and occasionally produced disabling or fatal results. Since many--perhaps most felons engaged in this fashion were going away from the shooters, the calibers' weak stopping abilities only came to the fore in cases where the felon was in your face and pressing an armed attack. In these instances, the weak-sistered handgun rounds of the day were largely ineffective in stopping attacks.

As times went on, the practice of firing upon fleeing unarmed felons became frowned upon by the legal system--whether the firing was done by citizens or by cops. Dead suspects don't generate revenue for lawyers, and defense attorneys hate having their rice bowls broken. What emerged is a rule of engagement that only allows citizens and cops to use deadly force when confronted with deadly force or force likely to produce great bodily harm. What this means--YOU WILL BE SQUARELY IN HARM'S WAY AT THE TIME YOU COMMENCE SELF-PROTECTIVE FIRING. Then and only then will you be justified in projecting lethal force. This means the attacker(s) will be in your face exchanging finality with you at close quarters. For these circumstances, most people want as large a caliber--as heavy a bullet--going as fast as possible--in a compact platform that carries as many rounds as can be stuffed into a cylinder or magazine. You choose what to carry, and what to feed it. Ya still think that 32 is "all that and a bag of chips?"

This isn't fly fishing, where light tackle and prowess with same on large species is praised and rewarded. 2nd place award ceremonies for gunfights get held in churches and at gravesides. God knows I've attended enough of them.

This response is one of the most thought out ,experienced,educated,thought provoking,intelligent response I have ever read regarding enough or to much.
Thank You for your wisdom.I listened.