Saying hi and how i think i can be of service

[Hammer]

I have been sying for months there is room for more die makers. You may be the answer to our prayers!

I can't wait to see what you develop. Keep searching this site and you will find a Vendor Sponsor area and a sales area to post your goodies..

There is a wealth of information in this forum and several others.

Hope you had a Merry Christmas and a very prosperous New Year to you!!!!!!

Ed

[warf73]

I like the press let me know the details when you can.

Thanks Warf

[u.p. north]

The price i came up with so far is in the neighborhood of $650. I have read many different ways all of you would want one built. The best thing is private message me your phone number(this of course is a non-commitment thing) and i could give you a call back and discuss your wants. The wait on these presses like i said could be 1 to 4 weeks. But i would get it to you when i told you it is coming to you if i need to work later into the night.



I can say one thing a lot of time is put into building a press like this. This press is built heavier than other presses and the wait time is not as long. I am searching a few different sources for better prices.


Thanks,
Tim (u.p. north)

[bdbullets]

I talked to Tim last night on the phone about his press and possibly some dies. I enjoyed our conversation and learned a lot more about what he doing and his ideas for the press. If everything goes right for me ( waiting for the last tests to come back on on my leg, so far so good)I will be sending him a money order as soon as he tells me to for one of his presses. From our conversation I think his press will be better than the other guys by a long shot AND NO SIX+ MONTHS OF WAITING. If your interested in his press and dies send him your phone number and he will call you.

[RP]

Iam would love a set of dies to make 224 dia bullets for less than corbins 800.00 bucks.

[u.p. north]

had to start cutting some material today on the saw. so i had some spare time to start on making some dies. making a set for my .45 . will give updates as i progress. also am drawing up some plans for a few ideas i have for these presses. anybody interested in a press give me a p.m. or email with a contact number and i will call you.

Also "bdbullets" thank you very much for the kind words. i wish you well, and am sure everything will be allright with you. i look forward to hearing from you this weekend, take care.
Thank you all,
u.p. north (tim)

[jixxerbill]

That is very good of you to do this for me. I am researching the dies and from what i have found out the lower priced dies are not hardened, anyone correct me here if i am wrong. I have been looking into making them from tool steel (die body, point former, etc. ) i am about 90% certain i will have no problems making the .30 cal and larger dies and accessories, this is about three weeks to a month out. Main thing is i am not going to sell junk. The main thing i ask guys is just have a little patience as i am going to take my time at this. so it can be done in the highest quality that i have learned to make things to. that is working in tenths to a half of a thousanths tolerance.
thanks,
u.p north

cheap ones might not be but , well , thats cause they are cheap ^^...they just made to work on a standard reloading presses which dont normally make the pressure that swage presses are made for....so not too much concern for a die exploding (unless your doing something they were not ment to do ??)<----and people are ....good dies are made from metals that can be air oil or water quenched to a specific hardness and also to achieve better wear resistance......i myself use 4140 prehard for my dies machines pretty well and has rc of around 25-30 if memory serves me correctly....but i wouldnt sell them to anyone just because everyone is sue happy now-a-days.....if a die was to explode under 60k plus pressure, well u get the picture ?? just my 2 cents and to warn others of there could be impending doom !!??

[u.p. north]

([QUOTE=jixxerbill;1105568]cheap ones might not be but , well , thats cause they are cheap ^^...they just made to work on a standard reloading presses which dont normally make the pressure that swage presses are made for....so not too much concern for a die exploding (unless your doing something they were not ment to do ??)

I will reply to this later. This is one of the many things I have been checking on.

[Buckshot]

if a die was to explode under 60k plus pressure, well u get the picture ?? just my 2 cents and to warn others of there could be impending doom !!??

.............The dies I made for myself are simply 12L14, and unhardened. That would be a commercial no-no, but for me and after several hundred boolits (38-55, 58 cal Minie', & re-striking for 38 S&W) they're still perking along fine, and it machines so nice. I'm planning on making a die (if I can find the time) to make slugs for my Rem RB .43 Spanish and another for the 577-450.



LEFT The Form die set, swaged core and final slug. There is also a core bleed die set to go with it. RIGHT Some swaged boolits from the die, 272 gr solids, 305gr HP's.

So far as a die "Exploding"? I don't think so. The pressure is applied so gradually that if a die was to fail it certainly wouldn't be a catastrophic event. No explosions, sorry. Most likely the die would crack, the pushrod would fail, or possibly the die would bulge and that would be about it. I would have no personal issue in making swage dies for others IF I could make them to accepted commercial tolerances. However I cannot, and would not feel justified in doing so, unless a half thou or a bit less was fine and EXACT nose forms weren't expected. Besides that, I have no commercially acceptable means to harden them.

Lathework is fairly commonly done to a half thousandth or a bit better by even hobby machinists (like me) and on the lathes most of us use, that's pretty decent work. Lets be very honest here in that the 'rough' die work is done on a lathe. The 'Fine' work to bring an internal bore to a tenth or better is more the pervue of grinding and then honing. You don't produce flatwork on your Bridgeport to a tenth (unless its small and you're VERY lucky). In production after visiting the mill, it goes to the surface grinding & polishing shop to be finished.

The other issue with creating dies besides the comparatively simple action of boring the cylindrical part is the nose profile. Again for me, creating dies for myself and using my caveman grinding tools, if I hit CLOSE to what I want, I'm content. Don't try to shuffle that off onto a customer that has speced a 1.7 radius ogive Eyeballing it ain't gonna make it, so unless you have the wallet for a tool grinder capable of radial and tangetal radius grinding, you'll have to buy your spoons form an outfit that does.



LEFT A few of my ho-made profile tools. RIGHT A closeup of the lefthand tool in the left photo. It took me half a day, a few minutes here and there to get it like I wanted it, and it was a real battle to not try to 'make it better' For me I was tickled, especially knowing "From Whense it Came"! It forms the nose for 58 cal Minie' boolits.

I'm not trying to be negative about making swage dies. Making the swage presses for sale and in a timely fashion will be a great service. But producing swage dies to the tolerances normally associated with them (and it's NOT to a half thou) plus the desired nose forms is a whole 'nuther kettle of fish entirely. Possibly there is a grinding & honing place they can be farmed out to after being lathe turned?

................Buckshot

[MaxJon]

Hello swagers,casters, and reloaders here is a little about myself. I am married (22 years now) have a older adult son on his own, and a sixteen year old son at home with us . I lost my job a while back due to a permanent shut down. In our area here in Upper Michigan (yes i am a Yooper ) it is very hard to find a job especially in the tool and die/ machining industry. I have started looking into other sources of income. I came across this site as i was looking for work to quote in the punching baffle industry. I happened to type in swaging and that is how i ended up here. That is when i noticed what B.T. Sniper was starting to do. I think it was a while later I came across Aneats start at building his home made press. I had a part time job this past summer doing carpentry work with a friend of mine. Now it is winter, so I can't do the carpentry work. I have my own equipment so i started to build a press, similar to the one Aneat was building, and from what i understand Mattm drew up. These gentleman deserve some credit in this adventure i took on . I had to change a few things in their design to suit the needs of a friend. I finished the press, he came over with his reloading dies so we could do a test run. Everything lined up perfectly. He was very impressed on how smooth and efficently everything worked. He is seriously thinking of buying one of these from me. I have been in the machining industry for about twenty two years and am planning on staying in it. My plans are to start making some of this reloading/swaging equipment and to keep doing it. I think i can offer a very good quality product at a reasonable price in a timely fashion. SO IF YOU HAVE ANY IDEAS OR NEEDS PLEASE FEEL FREE TO GET A HOLD OF ME.

Sorry about such a long thread but it was decided i should do a little intro of myself. So what i am trying to say is, I am here for the long run and i hope i can help some of you. Also becoming a vendor sponsor on this site is a goal. I have spent a lot of time and learned so much in a short time here on this great Cast Boolits web site.



Thank you,
u.p. north (tim)

Yeah Welcome Tim!
This really is an awesome site! I like you have gained a wealth of knowledge in the past 12 months from this site!! ENJOY!!!!
BB03

[u.p. north]

Hoping you all had a safe and Happy New Year. May this New Year be better for all of us.
Thanks,
U.P. North

[jixxerbill]

ill have to agree to disagree with u buckshot on the exploding of the dies...i hope it never happens to anyone but when u cam-over with the handle on the press it makes alot of pressure very quickly. but thats my opinion so we disagree i guess...but thanks for all your photos buckshot ive made several dies using your ideas.. the spoon cutters were very helpfull making my die to roundover copper tubing for use as jackets!

[BT Sniper]

Why the doom and gloom Jix? Great thing about so called " cheap" dies is that if one should "explode" it costs less to replace. I was hoping this would just pass over but...... we don't need to scare anyone, it is bad for the hobby.

I have broke two so called cheap dies. The last one was on purpose to an extent. I was exerting a LOT of force to see just how much I could make a solid base of brass jacket form into a boat tail. There was no explosion and certainly no danger. Simply cracked the die. You would not even know it is broke looking at the die now.

First die that broke on me was my fault too. A large buldge that formed on my base punch after severial thousand bullets formed. I had incorectly attempted to heat treat the base punch and messed it up by actually making it softer. No longer do that any more. Well it was a wedge that split the die like a banana. Again no explosion. I did not even know it had broke till severial bullets later.

I know of one other die I have seen broke. A corbin 22 point forming die. It didn't explode either to my knowledge. Made two nice halves actually.

I replaced each one my "cheap" die bodies for $57, reused all the internials and have made severial thousand more bullets with it obviously getting my money back. How much do suppose it would cost to replace a Corbin?

Moral of story.... I knew I was appling to much pressure. Anyone that has broke a die may say the same thing. When used corretly any die will be quite safe in my oppinion.

Swage On!

BT

[Radio Flyer]

I'm not trying to be negative about making swage dies. Making the swage presses for sale and in a timely fashion will be a great service. But producing swage dies to the tolerances normally associated with them (and it's NOT to a half thou) plus the desired nose forms is a whole 'nuther kettle of fish entirely. Possibly there is a grinding & honing place they can be farmed out to after being lathe turned?

................Buckshot

Is there not a compromise point?

If an enterprising person can make serviceable dies that are within useable tolerances would that not be a marketable product?

So long as the customer knows and the price reasonable for the product?

Lets be honest, the CH4D dies are not Corbin dies... but the dies make quality shootable bullets that will compare well (if not superior) to factory jacketed bullets and at a very reasonable price.

We could use a source for .308 6s and 8s, .224 6s, and .355, .452 and others based on the Ted Smith/Corbin M dies that are a step up in production flexibility from CH4D.

If the bullet comes out as .308 (plus or minus ? what?) would most of us mind so long as we know what we can expect and judge the price on the merits?

Just to check I pulled out the tools and measured the results - Corbin of course the least variation and best formation, with the factory and CH4D about the same (BTW not any of the three was I capable of finding measurement variations with an inexpensive digital caliper the mitutoyo not much better it took a micrometer)

[MIBULLETS]

I agree with you Radio Flyer. Plus the only way for a guy to get really good is by making a lot of dies. I'm sure there are a lot of things to learn that could be somewhat unique to bullet swaging dies, like how big does the hole need to be if I want the bullet to be .3080, made with alloyed lead instead of pure lead, or copper tubing instead of brass jackets. To be able to make a lot of dies fast you need to know that up front. People who make their own have time to hone then check and hone some more. For the most part we can get away with these changes but it pays for a die maker to know how things will react. I am no machinist and maybe this is nonsense, if so disregard it as such.

[Buckshot]

Is there not a compromise point?

Certainly. Each person has an idea of what they'll accept, and what they won't. The compromise point is between the two.

If an enterprising person can make serviceable dies that are within useable tolerances would that not be a marketable product?

Again, you bet! But the sticking point: ".............. serviceable dies that are within useable tolerances................. ". Different folks are going to expect different things. However I believe that few are going to accept an accuracy of .0005". Most people expect accuracy in a swage die of well beyond that. A well made boolit mould will deliver that or better.

So long as the customer knows and the price reasonable for the product?

Sure, and that is the meaning of the statement, "You get what you pay for".

Lets be honest, the CH4D dies are not Corbin dies... but the dies make quality shootable bullets that will compare well (if not superior) to factory jacketed bullets and at a very reasonable price.

We could use a source for .308 6s and 8s, .224 6s, and .355, .452 and others based on the Ted Smith/Corbin M dies that are a step up in production flexibility from CH4D.

If the bullet comes out as .308 (plus or minus ? what?) would most of us mind so long as we know what we can expect and judge the price on the merits?

The Lyman/RCBS lube-size dies, and the Lee type push through dies I make are spec'd 'Nominal to +.0003" with WW type alloy. I supply a proof slug with each die. I could also possibly offer dies at a couple bucks less with a tolerance of say, -.0002" to +.0003" of nominal for a half thou total. Some might be happy with that, but most likey, more would opt to pay a few dollars more.

Just to check I pulled out the tools and measured the results - Corbin of course the least variation and best formation, with the factory and CH4D about the same (BTW not any of the three was I capable of finding measurement variations with an inexpensive digital caliper the mitutoyo not much better it took a micrometer)

Just like the saying, "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?" you could substitute accuracy in that statement. You can pay $69 for a bottom line Italian tang sight, or you can pay $400 for an Axtell tang sight. Cost of materials for both is probably a wash, so you're paying for precision fit and accurate repeatable accuracy.

I'm certainly NOT trying to rain on anyone's parade who wants to make swage dies. Very possibly there is a market for them with accuracy of ".0005" or less", however I really think that most people buying swage dies pretty much expect accuracy a bit better then that.

................Buckshot

[deltaenterprizes]

I would be interested in a light weight 6MM/.243 nose forming die and a light weight .308 nose forming die that were within .0005''.
I can make the others but I am having trouble with the small internal radius.

I would think W-1 drill rod would make decent dies that are able to be hardened if needed to be done and also wear well if not hardened.

These could be made to fit the Herters 9 ton press, a standard reloading press or a Corbin "S" press.

[warf73]

Has anyone contacted CH4D or Corbin to see what tolerances they run?
If I order a .400" forming die is it .3998" or .4001( +.0001 or - .0002 @ 65 degrees) .
Do they use the 65* as there base line temp. when measuring the dies in there QA area? I don't remember the formula but for every 1 degree materal X will grow or contract by .000X".

[Radio Flyer]

Very possibly there is a market for them with accuracy of ".0005" or less", however I really think that most people buying swage dies pretty much expect accuracy a bit better then that.

................Buckshot

Yes and no...

I would be very interested... one of the secrets most do not realize is that when a bullet jumps from the cartridge neck to the rifling it is again “swaged” to the rifling and +/- .0005 is better than we can ever expect from factory mass produced bullets.

I am looking at this from an advocate position, and the reality of price and sales.

I am trying to be reasonable here, I have at least 8 sets of Corbin dies, to buy them new now would be 9 to 12K - 12k and wait at least 24 months for each one.

As it stands now I would LOVE to get some M type dies for my series II press that did not cost more than my car is worth now...

I would like to add to my .355 collection, and would like a point forming die in 5 or 6 s for my .308 collection, and I am not willing to wait 24 months for that, I would rather just use my 8s as is...

I have my CH4D in .355 and lets be honest it is not Corbin level stuff but I love the price and I just finished a run of 500 hollow points for .355 to load up...

If CH4D can do it for 129 bucks a set, someone should be able to produce a “halfway set” that fits a Mighty Mite press or Series II and make a copy press for less than 400 bucks (the three die set) and keep them in stock.

I am done with the crazy benchrest crowd, I want to shoot and I would like to see swaging make a comeback, good priced dies giving reasonable results would bring in some new guys and I think that would be great.

The worst part about Corbin (and I love both the brothers) is that money is tied up for two years often and no market outside of a very specific type of customer will tolerate that... I want new guys and reasonable dies that don’t cost an arm and a leg, it would increase experimentation and the more participants the more available materials will become.

Simple stuff like jacket availability (I would even love to get some copper flashed steel jackets to play with) lead wire, and support equipment would help us “lead smashers”...

[BwBrown]

Neither I, or any of my guns, would probably ever notice a variation of any less than 5/10,000" I'd be interested in seeing random samples of commercial bullets, as well as specialty 1,000 yard bench rest fodder, and their average deviation. With no data, I would not be surprised if the over the counter stuff would show a variation of much greater tolerance in roundness and diameter. They're even a grain and more apart in eight.

I have some bench rest 1,000 yard buddies whose equipment and skills blow me away, and leave me in awe. However, that genre is way beyond my means.

I vote for reasonable quality in available quantity. A .0005" die in the hand is worth two .000005" dies on the waiting list.

I never considered myself to be an impatient person, but to take my money and make me wait a couple years or more just makes me twitch!
Bob