257 Robertsx6.5mm Arisaka Rounds ?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I decided to Fire Form all the Brass I have from the rifle purchase. Primed the 40 cleaned brass cartridges and loaded 12.5 gr Bullseye followed by 2.2 cc Cream of Wheat followed by some cotton followed by a wax plug.

The wax was some paraffin/Vaseline mix I made to lubricate wood screws
with when screwing wood... Soft but still stiff (!)...you know what I mean.

my thoughts...
I am skeptical you'll get enough pressure with just a wax/vaseline plug to form the brass. I'd use a lead Boolit.

I am not am expert, I have only fireformed using starting loads with boolits or J-words for .223 rem. to ackley improved, 9 Luger to 9x18, 30-06 to 8mm. the last two needed modification and trimming before loading for fireforming.
Jon

[Bret4207]

Bret4207 -

I bought 3 Wax Toilet Rings about 5 years ago for $2 each, used one re-installing our
downstairs toilet (old one had gone bye-bye ?) and kept the other two.
They keep the sewer gas from leaking out around the toilet-Pipe junction (FYI).

Stuffed one into a wide mouth jar - melted it to all fit and been using that
wax for all sorts of lubrication jobs (wood screws go in easily).

Whatever it is now, it would serve the same functions - a soft, pliable, sealing and lubricating wax.

I know what they are and are for Bill. I just don't want you to assume its actual beeswax anymore.

[frkelly74]

12+ gr of bullseye seems like a lot of bullseye! Whenever I think of bullseye I think 6 gr max. Never tried it though except in my 45.

[DoctorBill]

frkelly74 - "12+ gr of bullseye seems like a lot of bullseye! Whenever I think of
bullseye I think 6 gr max."

I suppose it does seem like a lot. I got that amount off of a link about
fire forming rifle rounds.

"Fire a load using 15 grains of Bullseye, filler and a wax plug to form."
suggested by George Nonte in his book of handloading...

I remembered that the recommended MilSurp Rifle load by Ed Harris was 16 gr
of 2400 pistol powder - and that is with a bullet in the business end !

Here is a pdf form of the C.E. Harris article:
http://home.comcast.net/~gavinsw/guns/castbulletmilitaryrifle.pdf
Here it is as a posting which one can print out (I did !)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...30&postcount=1

This cartridge is wide open with just COW and a wax plug in the end.

I'll be worried, also, when I fire the first one off !

If it weren't pretty strong - it wouldn't get high enough pressure of form the Brass.

So far it has been less than 20° F around these parts, so I haven't had the
gumption to go out to the range and freeze my fingers off.

If I took these wax plugged cartridges out there now, the air inside the brass
will probably shrink and suck the wax back into the cartridge !

DoctorBill

More Harris articles:
http://yarchive.net/gun/index.html

An experiment I can relate to -
http://www.mynetimages.com/8c44f74000.jpg

[DoctorBill]

This is a MAN's BBQ grill...



This is a San Francisco Ad about you rotten, bad hunters killing creatures....



Nancy Pelosi Country - they vote !

DoctorBill

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Thanks for that newspaper clip from Pelosi country. It helps me understand those loons.
Jon

[DoctorBill]

257 Roberts Brass Fireforming Experiment

I got tired of waiting for decent weather to arrive, so I fired off one of
the 12.5 gr Bullseye, COW, Cotton then WAX loads into a bucket of Cat Litter
inside the house - good thing I had earmuffs on !

So...when I ejected the Brass....here is what I found....




THAT is really weird !

Old brittle Brass - too much Bullseye - or did the load of Cream of Wheat
just rip the neck off ?

Guess I will unload the other 39 rounds and try something else.

Thoughts:

1. I'll anneal one or two and try this again.

2. Maybe I should just throw these OLD 40 cases of Brass away.

DoctorBill

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

WOW,
I would have never guessed that would happen ?

Beeswax is real sticky and hind sight is 20/20,
So I guess I could understand why that happened
if the base of the neck was brittle,
but since you were using toilet ring wax blended with vasoline,
I wouldn't think the wax would "grip" the neck
enough to tear it off ?

I hope someone more experienced chimes,
I'd love to hear a better idea than I can come up with.

[DoctorBill]

I did that one round this morning, before I went off to lecture my class
in Chemistry.

Thought about it all morning....I hadn't found the Brass neck in the Cat
Litter.

Got back home from the College and decided maybe I ought to look
in the rifle chamber...... Guess where it is ?

A nice 'fireformed' Brass Neck sitting there in the rifle chamber !

Got it out with a stiff Brass Brush going in from the receiver end and pulling it out.



This is the whole thing



The neck went from 289 to 302 diameter (that is awfully large - no ?)
Shoulder 425 to 439
Base from 464 to 468
The primer had not moved at all (looks good).

This Brass must be a gonner. This one was NORMA Re.

I'll empty them all and try annealing them.
Lord knows how old it is or what it has seen....

I have some "Tempilaq" paint that melts at 700° F to help me
keep from destroying the Brass while annealing it.

THEN...I will try this again with 6 gr Bullseye and no COW.
Maybe 2400 would be a better powder to use.
Just a small cotton plug to hold it in.

or

since I now have the 257 Roberts x 6.5mm CH Dies, I could see if
the Brass can take the neck sizing w/o splitting (after annealing it).

Don't know...might try everything ! I can't shoot... the weather is wretched.

DoctorBill

[Mk42gunner]

Doctor Bill,

I would try annealing the brass before attempting to fireform any more.

I have always had better luck fireforming with a projectile seated long, to jam into the rifling, and a moderate load than I have with fast powder and COW.

If all else fails, you could always buy a bag of new brass.

Robert

[TCLouis]

HOLY MOLEY, 12.5 BE is WAY TOO much powder.

Anneal the necks as suggested, 4-5 grains of BE, fill with COW (not corn meal), point straight up (check wind direction) fire straight up may not be socially acceptable in a subdivision the DAMN neighborhood ass ociation person might visit.

Yet another reason to live out away from folks.

[madsenshooter]

Now just look at what a simple little project can turn into. So when does the fun start? .302 is bout right for the neck.

[DoctorBill]

"Now just look at what a simple little project can turn into."

Back when I was working as a Research Biochemist for a Bayer
AG owned branch company, I always seemed short on time, tired,
pissed off and bitter.

Then I got laid off, couldn't find a job at 55 ("no age discrimination" is
a bald-faced lie!), tried teaching what I got my PhD in and have been
as happy as a clam ever since I stopped working for moronic managers
and "Bean Counters".

Now I teach Chemistry to those who will become moronic managers !

AND, I am quite glad when a little project becomes interesting !

No one is pressuring me to get it done yesterday, to write up how I plan to do it -
I can do it whenever I get the inclination or not and who gives a flying *%$* -
besides me ?

Anyway...onward - "So when does the fun start?".....NOW !

I am trying, for the first time, to anneal Brass - had purchased some
Tempilaq "temperature indicating paint" which changes when the
desired temperature is reached.

You dab it on the Brass, let it dry (dries quickly), then heat the Brass
in a torch until the paint 'melts' - then quench. Walla !

Before Heating


Heating the Brass


Quenching the Brass under the tap


After Heating


I had to heat the Brass a tad longer than my intuition told me to...
The Tempilaq allows you to learn or experience how long to heat the Brass.

Held the Brass with T.P. soaked in cold water to keep the base cool.
then Quenched under the tap - did this in the bathroom.
(I am doing that old Brass with the new primers still in there...)

As a guide to how long to heat - when the wet TP wrap got uncomfortably warm is
when the Tempilaq melted (changed color). Then under the cold running water.

Wish I had seen this before I did it my way...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgD5D...eature=related



Off Topic - You Just Have to Love This ! Click on the image.



DoctorBill

Tempilaq - Midway Item No. 171855 $15. Specify Temp.

[DoctorBill]

I ran a couple of those "Annealed" cases thru 67bear's CH 257 Roberts x 6.5mm Die
that he sold me.

I took out the depriming pin as these cases are primed from when I was
going to try fireforming.

Two cases went thru the Full length die with the neck expander in the Die.

Went kinda hard, but I lubed the neck and body with 50:50 Castor Oil in Mineral Spirits.

That case lube works well and you just wipe it on with a barrel mop
screwed into a handle. Inside and out of the neck.

Having an iron based metal center, I place the mop on a magnet mounted
to my Drill Press which is next to my reloading presses.



Both old, annealed 257 Roberts cases were sized and did not split at the neck.

I will finish all of them and load them with the gas checked 170 gr LEE Cruise Missile.

Anyone ever use that 170 gr LEE Cruise Missile cast bullet in this rifle ?

If so, what powder and load did you use ?

How about this ?....Lyman Manual 45th Ed. - 6.5 Jap 160 gr Jacketed cited (p 62) Starting Loads
25 gr 3031 or 28 gr 4064 (I have both these propellants plus RL-7)
drop to 70% for the 170 gr cast, GC Cruise Missile -
thus...
18 gr 3031 -- or 18 gr RL-7 which burns a bit slower than 4064 - I have RL-7 also) or 20 gr 4064 ?

DoctorBill

PS - I am having a lot of fun screwing around with this old Brass.
Bought 50 new Winchester cases - for later.....

[DoctorBill]

I don't know if anyone gives a Big Rat's Tuckus about all this old Brass
stuff I am doing here.....

I suppose if you didn't, you wouldn't be reading it.

I sized all 39 of the remaining "old ancient" 257 Roberts Brass to
257 R x 6.5mm using the older CH Dies purchased from 67bears,
after annealing the cases.

Funny thing - about 25% of the cases needed a No. 3 Shellholder (Black Ends) while
the rest required a No. 2 Shellholder (unmarked).

What is that all about ?



Two of the cases split out of the 39 (5%) .

One was that old reformed 30-06 case and one was a NORMA !



Now, I await some instructive, informative, Golden Toned comments
from the highly intelligent, sophisticated, all about town fellows on
this forum about a possible propellant load (see my previous post)
for the 170 gr Cast LEE Cruise Missile.

DoctorBill

PS - when I do this again (on unprimed Brass!) I believe I will use an
idea I saw on YouTube by 'Ammoman' for holding the Brass whilst one
is heating it. I'll use the 'El Cheapo Ritzo' method....



One could hold the Brass whilst turning it in the torch flame thusly...


Those are my lovely wife's hands holding a 30-06 case in a 15/32's socket.

...or mount the 1/4 inch sockets on a battery run drill and turn the brass slowly.

When the case has been heated properly simply invert it over a pan of water
and it falls out...

Of course...everybody knew about this already !

[Mk42gunner]

I ran a couple of those "Annealed" cases thru 67bear's CH 257 Roberts x 6.5mm Die
that he sold me....

I will finish all of them and load them with the gas checked 170 gr LEE Cruise Missile.

Anyone ever use that 170 gr LEE Cruise Missile cast bullet in this rifle ?

If so, what powder and load did you use ?

How about this ?....Lyman Manual 45th Ed. - 6.5 Jap 160 gr Jacketed cited (p 62) Starting Loads
25 gr 3031 or 28 gr 4064 (I have both these propellants plus RL-7)
drop to 70% for the 170 gr cast, GC Cruise Missile -
thus...
18 gr 3031 -- or 18 gr RL-7 which burns a bit slower than 4064 - I have RL-7 also) or 20 gr 4064 ?DoctorBill

PS - I am having a lot of fun screwing around with this old Brass.
Bought 50 new Winchester cases - for later.....

Once again,

Your rifle is no longer chambered for the 6.5 Arisaka round. I do not know enough about the 6.5x257 to give load advice, but the case is considerably larger than the original Arisaka cartridge.

Robert

[DoctorBill]

Mk42gunner - "I do not know enough about the 6.5x257 to give load advice,
but the case is considerably larger than the original Arisaka cartridge."

Yes. That is true.

The Arisaka had 2.66 cc useful volume while the 257 Roberts has 3.45 cc volume.
Data from LEE 2nd Ed.

That is 130% more volume.

The Arisaka pushed a 6.5 mm 139 gr FMJ bullet @ 2500 fps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5x50mm_Arisaka

The 257 Roberts pushed an 75 to 115 gr jacketed bullet @ 3600 to 2800 fts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.257_Roberts

It has been said here that this converted Arisaka is more like the 6.5mmx57 Mauser round.
about 3.68 cc useful capacity ? Lee again.
I can't find data for the 6.5mmx57 Mauser in any Manuals I have - so I looked up the 65mmx55 Swedish Mauser.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...9&postcount=61

If that were the case, then the 3rd Ed. Lyman Cast Handbook calls for

143 Cast Bullet, Gas Checked - starting loads

630.............................10.0 gr
Unique...........................9.0
Green Dot......................8.0
Red Dot..........................7.0

I have Red Dot and Unique in stock here in my "shop".

But....LEE, 2nd Ed. has the following jacketed loads for the 6.5mmx55 Swedish
for a 160 gr Jacketed Bullet....

For powder I have in my shop -

A-XMR-4064........................35.1 gr
Reloder 15...........................32.8
Reloder 7.............................23.0

If I drop to 70 or 80% of the above loads for a 170 gr GC, Cast Bullet, I should be ok (yes?).

In any case, I ought to be able to use around 12 gr of 2400 following the
Ed Harris loads in his article.

I also have Trail Boss where I just fill the case and shoot-em-up ! Neat stuff.

If I keep to the above loads, I don't believe I will blow my Arisaka up.

I have a Chronometer and can check velocities which I would like to keep below
about 1600 fps.

I want to shoot CAST with light loads to keep my bad shoulder from getting worse.
Thus, I figure I'll probably need a filler.
I have "Puff-Lon", oven Dried Coffee Grounds, TP, and Cotton for use with slower powders.
Cream of Wheat tends to harden into a clump (needs drying?)

Have I made any stoopid ASSumptions in the above diatribe ?

I have to start somewhere and quit fooling around with the Brass !

DoctorBill

[HangFireW8]

Mk42gunner - "I do not know enough about the 6.5x257 to give load advice,
but the case is considerably larger than the original Arisaka cartridge."

Yes. That is true.

The Arisaka had 2.66 cc useful volume while the 257 Roberts has 3.45 cc volume.
Data from LEE 2nd Ed.

That is 130% more volume.

Sorry, but no, it's not 130% more volume. It's about 130% of the volume, or about 30% more volume.

-HF
Member, SFTPOPSA, Society for the Prevention of Percent Sign Abuse.

[DoctorBill]

Picky, picky, picky.....

OK....it is 130% of the Jap case volume.

I'll leave out the word "more".

But generally 100% means the same quantity.

I guess no one has loaded this 257 Roberts x 6.5mm with anything near the
170 gr LEE cast bullet.

I thought I would have been inundated with loading data at this point !

DoctorBill

[HangFireW8]

I thought I would have been inundated with loading data at this point !

You were, you just didn't notice it.

My Hornady 4th edition has a complete set of loads for jacketed bullets in 6.5x57mm from 100 up to 160 grains. This cartridge may have been moved to their supplementary volume in more recent editions.

Keep in mind you can call Hornady or Sierra and ask them for any load- Sierra will be happy to read any of their competitor's load manuals to you. I realize most of this is for jacketed bullets, but there is plenty out there to get you started.

-HF