257 Robertsx6.5mm Arisaka Rounds ?

[frkelly74]

Well you have a 6.5 bore on a 257 Roberts case which is nothing more than a 7x57 mauser case necked to 25 calibre so wouldn't that make it a standard 6.5x57 mauser?. Pat

The 6.5X57 Mauser and the 6.5X257 Roberts are almost the same cartridge. The big difference is the angle of the shoulder. My info shows that the angle of the 6.5X57 is a little more than 16 degrees from the bore axis and the 6.5X257 Roberts shows a little more than 20 degrees, same as the 7X57 and the 257 Rob. also the diameter just ahead of the rim is slightly different.(.004 Inch) Loading data should interchange I think.

[madsenshooter]

Well you have a 6.5 bore on a 257 Roberts case which is nothing more than a 7x57 mauser case necked to 25 calibre so wouldn't that make it a standard 6.5x57 mauser?. Pat

6.5x57 is just tad longer to the shoulder. Like I said above, close enough that the bolt will close with a bit of effort. It's a worthwhile thing to check as the .257 being an early wildcat, not all reamers were the same and some of the wildcat cases had a different shoulder. Then there's the Ackley Improved versions. Who was talking about Smokey, one of my 6.5x257 rifles looks like some kids project from the 50's, it even has Smokey carved into the side of the buttstock! .268 is about normal groove diameter it seems, I run across some smaller but most I've measured are around .2675".

[HORNET]

It might be good to point out that the .257 Roberts was a wildcat for a long time and minor dimensional variations are fairly normal. When Remington made it a standard chambering, they changed the shoulder angle and length from the wildcat version. Their version was referred to as the .257 Remington Roberts for quite a while to distinguish it as different. I would expect the same kind of variations to be common with the 6.5 Roberts chambers with or without any special designation like the 6.5 Spence Special variation. Interchangeability can only be determined by trying the different versions. I strongly suspect that the chamber on mine was cut with a standard .257 Roberts reamer and NOT a special 6.5x.257 reamer due to the real tight neck.

[DoctorBill]

I kinetically emptied all 20 of those old reloads I got with the Arisaka.

OMG - about 25% of them had oily powder that caked in the cartridge !

It looked and acted oily - I had to work it out of the case with a stick.

Some more of them had that sweet/sour odor, also. Burned it all.

The back of the very old Norma Box had some faint writing saying the
charge was 36 gr of 3031 with an 89 gr bullet and Winchester primers.
No date.

I fired the primers off in the rifle into a plastic water bottle to muffle
the sound (I live in a "no Shooting' town...).

Glad I shot off the primers. Cleaned the rifle barrel - ton of black soot !

One was a squib - took two firings to go off.
about 75% were loud with flame visible, but about 25% were fairly
quiet and one made no more noise than snapping one's fingers !

About 6 out of 10 of the NORMA Re Brass cartridges had the primers back out
of the cartridge maybe 25% of the way after I fired the primers off !
Mixed headstamp - some Remington some with just the numbers '43' and '75' on the end.

So I washed the Brass in 1:4 Vinegar:water which cleaned them very nicely,
rinsed them 4x, dried them in the oven at 300° and then tumbled them in my polisher.

They look very nice now.

I will fire off the other 20 old primed and dirty 257 Bobs (not sized) that he also
included. Their primers are probably questionable too.

These rounds (loaded and unloaded) were quite dark and dirty.
Bet they are 20 years old !

DoctorBill

[HORNET]

You might want to anneal the case necks on all those cases before you start reloading them. Brass will age harden and get brittle. I've had loaded brass that I forgot about that had the case necks crack after several years on the top of the gun safe. If those primers backed out, you should probably try one of the fireforming techniques to get the headspace on the cases corrected before you get serious about shooting them much. Improve case life and all that...

[DoctorBill]

The primers had backed out when I fired the unloaded cases in my Arisaka !

I had removed the bullets and powder and wanted to remove the old primers,
so I fired them off in the rifle - that is when the primers backed out.

I wonder if I need to 'peen' the primer holes to tighten them up ?

Why would they back out like that ? Just the Norma Re cases ?

What does "Norma Re" mean ? The Re - specifically ?



Who made that one case with the "?"

DoctorBill

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Once I get the AC 257 Roberts x 6.5mm Die Set and start reloading,
what should the OAL of the cartridge be ?

The original 6.5mm Arisaka round was 2.992 inches according to LEE,
Modern Reloading, 2nd Ed., Page 305.
DoctorBill

throat length can vary in any rifle, especially mil surps.
I generally measure the throat by seating the desired
bullet/boolit in a uncharged/unprimed case that
is preped with light neck tension using the rifle.
then measure the OAL, I generally back it off about .010"
Jon

[frkelly74]

The case you questioned is/was a GI 30/06 case manufactured in 1943 in Saint Louis, Mo. that one had a mercuric primer and if it wasn't washed out soon after firing is probably brittle from the action of the mercury on the brass.

[HORNET]

The primer pockets MIGHT be a little loose, but the primers backing out is not all that unusual with very low pressure loads or with firing primed cases. That nice heavy 1 pound () firing pin smacks the case forward in the chamber with considerable authority before the primer detonates. The pressure from the primer going off pushes the primer backwards and there's not enough rearward thrust generated inside the case to push the case back with it and keep it seated. That's why some people will fireform cases by seating the bullet out far enough and with enough neck tension to resist the firing pin and keep things in place until the powder has built up a little pressure. Another technique is to open the case neck up another caliber or so and then size enough to form a false shoulder to hold the headspace. Sometimes both methods are combined.

[madsenshooter]

The Norma cases that the primer backed out on may have a bit of headspace issue. I'd suggest necking them up to 30 cal or so before sizing. Then size in 6.5x257 dies, starting with the die adjusted high. Lower and size repeatedly until the bolt will just close on one. That'll make a false shoulder and eliminate the extra headspace. Don't, however repeatedly pull the case over the expander ball of your 6.5x257. In fact you could leave the expander out until you get the proper length to shoulder. After you've done this, you'll have your sizing die set for minimum headspace.

[DoctorBill]

I was talking to my OLD friend who teaches Biology at the same place
where I teach Chemistry about these boogered up Brass Cartridges.

He thinks I should just "Fire Form" them.

I guess I had a totally screwed up idea of what fire forming is !

He is two years older than me, is a retired M.D. surgeon and has seen everything and
done everything.

Been a Lead Miner in Idaho, has a pilot's license, was a bicycle racer in his Yoot,
has instructed in firearms at a local range, had his own Glamour Studio -
he worked with Peter Gowland who did a lot of Playboy's photography, knows
EVERYTHING about cameras and Photography...and fixes old 35mm cameras
as a hobby !

If he told me he had 'wet work' for the CIA, it wouldn't surprise me now !

Anyway - he says to put some load of powder (he couldn't remember
how much or what) into the cases and plug it with Rayon and fire it...!

I thought one had to have a bullet in the cartridge to achieve the necessary
pressure to fire form the brass. Not !

Is this correct - what he said ? Would 16 gr of 2400 work OK ?

DoctorBill

[TCLouis]

Fireform with bullseye and Cream of Wheat filler for great results.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

He thinks I should just "Fire Form" them.
I guess I had a totally screwed up idea of what fire forming is !
Anyway - he says to put some load of powder (he couldn't remember
how much or what) into the cases and plug it with Rayon and fire it...!
I thought one had to have a bullet in the cartridge to achieve the necessary
pressure to fire form the brass. Not !
Is this correct - what he said ? Would 16 gr of 2400 work OK ? DoctorBill

when I've fireformed brass I've always done what Hornet mentions,

"That's why some people will fireform cases by seating the bullet out far enough and with enough neck tension to resist the firing pin and keep things in place until the powder has built up a little pressure."

I use a moderate load, typically the starting load listed in a reloading manual.

[DoctorBill]

TCLouis - When I wrote that post about fireforming, I wondered if
someone would suggest Cream of Wheat !

OK - since I have quite a lot of Bullseye and 2400, how about 5 gr
of 2400 or Bullseye with COW on top and a wad of rayon to hold it in ?

I'm thinking of the Ed Harris article on Cast Bullet Basics For Military Rifles
where he recommended 5 gr of Bullseye for small game/gallery.

That is pretty far back from 16 gr of 2400 or 26 gr of RL-7 for the
heavier slugs.

The starting load for 6.5 Arisaka in the LEE manual is 32 gr of various
powders ! - way too much ?

Some thoughts anyway - am I wrong ?

I'd like to use the minimum amount of powder since it is expensive.
2400 and Bullseye burn fast and I have a lot of both...
DoctorBill

[HangFireW8]

I can confirm what Hornet said- the firing pin can cause shoulder setback in the chamber, and with no pressure, there is nothing to move the case shoulder back again.

There is another way, other than hard seating the bullet, to get the case to headspace properly before fireforming.

Neck up the case to 7mm. Then neck it back down to 6.5mm, just far enough to let it chamber. The "bump" up to 7mm will hold it in place until the first load fireforms it.

-HF

[Mk42gunner]

TCLouis - ...The starting load for 6.5 Arisaka in the LEE manual is 32 gr of various powders ! ...
DoctorBill

Ignore the suggestions for the 6.5 Jap round; your rifleis not chambered for that cartridge anymore.


Robert

[DoctorBill]

I decided to Fire Form all the Brass I have from the rifle purchase.

Primed the 40 cleaned brass cartridges and loaded 12.5 gr Bullseye followed
by 2.2 cc Cream of Wheat followed by some cotton followed by a wax plug.

(I could have used my oven dried, used Coffee Grounds - but forgot...)
It is amazing how much coffee grounds one can generate in just one week !



The Cream of Wheat says. "Best if used by MAR 19 1996" !
Do you think it is too outdated - might do something odd when fired off ?
(obviously lol)

The wax was some paraffin/Vaseline mix I made to lubricate wood screws
with when screwing wood... Soft but still stiff (!)...you know what I mean.

Now I have to get to the range and fire off 40 rounds...I'd go down some
isolated country road to do this, but bone-head Liberals out here might call the
County Sheriff on me and I don't want problems.

DoctorBill

PS - You can buy Bee's Wax real cheap - Hardware Store - Wax Toilet Ring Seal $3.
It is a lot - maybe 2 lbs of Bee's Wax - stuff it into a wide mouth screw top jar.
Very useful for a lot of things !

[Bret4207]

Bill, those toilet rings aren't usually real beeswax anymore.

[3006guns]

I've been following this thread with great interest, mostly because I collect Japanese rifles.

1.) The type 38 rifle was approved for service by the Japanese in 1905.
2.) It is an IMPROVED Mauser design. Strong, excellent gas control, fewer bolt parts.
3.) It's strength was not noted until Parker Ackley ran tests on various service rifles after WWII. Metalurgical test by an independant lab showed "elaborate heat treating" on all parts (their words)....each part treated to perform its function. This heat treating is uniform throughout their rifle production and was not done by any other country. It's a VERY stout little rifle (I have a copy of Ackley's report).
4.) That "oriental" looking, hard to operate safety actually serves three functions. It serves to hold the bolt parts in line, it is a positive palm operated safety and as mentioned, it is a gas shield to protect the shooter. The designer (Col. Arisaka) didn't want the Emporer's boys to get hurt in case of a punctured primer!
5.) If your rifle is indeed marked "Mukden", it was made in the Japanese established arsenal in Mukden, Manchuria. Same excellent quality control as the rifles made in Japan.
6.) The 6.5/.257 conversion was very common just after WWII and is a virtual duplicate of a European cartridge that escapes me right now.
7.) The "Re" on the Norma was their designation for "reloadable".
8.) With the exception of the military safety, you've got a dandy little rifle, chambered in a great cartridge. Enjoy it and just smile when others scoff at your "Jap military junk"!

Like most milsurp collectors I've been asked at times which ONE rifle I would choose. I'd lean toward one of my Springfield 1903's but my reply is "Under what conditions?" If I would be in harsh surroundings where I could not give the rifle the attention I normally would, I would choose either a 6.5 or 7.7 Arisaka. They're simple, rugged and usually make things fall down when you shoot them.

EDIT: WARNING..do NOT disassemble the bolt until you get proper instruction! There's a good pictorial guide on one of the milsurp collecting websites. Basically the bolt can be stripped/reassembled in a matter of seconds compared to a Mauser or Springfield, but if you reassemble it incorrectly then insert it back in the rifle it will lock up and you'll never get it out with tearing down the whole gun. Go ahead...ask me how I know this!

[DoctorBill]

Bret4207 -

I bought 3 Wax Toilet Rings about 5 years ago for $2 each, used one re-installing our
downstairs toilet (old one had gone bye-bye ?) and kept the other two.
They keep the sewer gas from leaking out around the toilet-Pipe junction (FYI).

Stuffed one into a wide mouth jar - melted it to all fit and been using that
wax for all sorts of lubrication jobs (wood screws go in easily).

Whatever it is now, it would serve the same functions - a soft, pliable, sealing and lubricating wax.

Would work quite well in Black Powder Revolver's cylinder wells like my 1851 Navy .36 cal.

3006guns -

A scan of Ackley's Report (or a link to it) would be nice for all to see !

I went to
http://www.surplusrifle.com/arisakatype38/index.asp
as I do for all my MilSurp Rifles and followed the destructions to disassemble that bolt.
It was clean and lubed well - unlike every other MS Rifle I have obtained !

I have 40 Fireform filled rounds to go shoot off...was going to do one
last night at New years at Midnight (everybody makes noise and shoots
firecrackers off), but I fell asleep like most old men do...



DoctorBill