Sniper Rifle Comparison

[JudgeBAC]

Great article on WWII sniper rifles.

http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/...GUNS/GUNS0211/

MV and a Hornady Ballistician tested WWII sniper rifles against each other.

The Russian 91/30 was the winner. Great reading.

[MtGun44]

Interesting. IME, multiple 03 and 03A3s will always do 1.5"-2" at 100 yds with handloads.
Some HPX (greek milsurp) ammo will do 2" at 100 with one of my stock 03s.

My new 91/30 will do maybe 3" with the best milsurp ammo that I have tried. Other 91/30
or M44 do MUCH worse.

Never had a 8x57 Mauser shoot better than 5" at 100 with any ammo so far. Four diff
rifles, various lots and mfg of milsurp ammo.

All with open sights.

Bill

[Nora]

My new 91/30 will do maybe 3" with the best milsurp ammo that I have tried. Other 91/30
or M44 do MUCH worse.

Bill

My M38 sounds like the second two. I can't explain why but it's one of my favorites to shoot. Though on a good day the best that it does is give me minute of back stop groups at 100 yards with open sights. Or is it due to my +40 eyes?

[Multigunner]

Sounds like all they proved was that well preserved milsurp ammo out performs degraded milsurp ammo.

I noticed they did mention US Snipers prefering AP ammo, there was a good reason for that.
The 168 grain AP ammo was intended for aerial gun use and manufactured to very high ingition consistency specifications. When synchonized .30 cowl guns were phased out, millions of rounds of this ammo was freed up for ground use.
As late as the late 60's 168 gr AP was a favorite for long range target use.
The much longer bearing surface of the long for its weight bullet no doubt is beneficial. The Springfield 1:10 twist was originally intended for the long heavy 220 grain round nose of the 1903 cartridge, they never changed the twist to best suit the shorter bearing surface of the 150 gr bullet of the 1906 loading.

Besides the more consistent ignition the boat tailed steel core was sealed into the jacket by a shaped base cap, no leading from an open base to mix with powder fouling in the leade.
From my experiments with the Soviet 147 gr Steel core it would appear that a steel core acts like a mandrel, the jacket being more evenly pressed into the rifling. This would counteract bullet cant from a loose or eroded throat.

A common problem with older milsurp ammo is hardening of bullet sealants. Even 7.62 ammo no more than a couple of decades old is known to group much better if the bullet is set back in the neck a few thousandths to break the grip of hardened sealants.

The Soviet scope was one of the best made. When Germany was looking to Russia as an ally they set up several companies there, one was a manufacturer of precision optics including telescopic sights, which the Germans had intended to import from Russia. They should have known those sights would end up being used against them.

The Mosin Nagant has been used to build some very fine target rifles, its definitely a rifle capable of great accuracy if properly manufactured and finished with a decent barrel.

[twotrees]

Due to having to pay bills that rifle was sold.

But, it had marking indicating that it had been back to the arsenal at least 4 times for rebuilds, so it must have seen a lot of service.

It carried a 4 X scope and the smoothest trigger pull, on a mil rifle I have ever seen. Due to the relative worth of that gun I never fired it.

One of those that I should have never sold, but family comes before all else.

BTW: it was a Sauer with a 3 digit serial #.

Bill Rogers, owner of Springfield Sporter's, had an extensive collection of Mauser's, and offered to buy that one from me.

When my eyes were good it was not hard to get a 2 inch group at 100 yards with some other mil 98's and surplus ammo.

[.357]

my m44 shot a 1 inch group at 100 yards with surplus ball ammo had a feather weight trigger pull and was butt ugly. Now it lives with the BIL and he loves it. Sometimes i miss it but i still get to shoot it so i guess it's okay.

[Larry Gibson]

Having tested numerous sniper rifles and studied them and there development for quite a few years it is quite easy to get moa or less with any of them, given excellent condition, when quality ammuntion is used. I read the article and it seemed more a est of ammuntion that of the rifles capability, which has been mentioned. I've a M1903 that I've built into a match rifle, a "new" stock issue M1903A3 SC with 4 groove barrel, 2 M98s, 1 with a receiver sight and the other with a 6X scope, and a real Ishvesk M91/30 sniper. All are capable of moa accuracy with quality match bullets and all are 1 1/2 moa capable with select milsurp ammuntion such as was selected and used by actual snipers using those weapons. Using "select" amuntion was understood back then as it is now.

Larry Gibson

[Multigunner]

All are capable of moa accuracy with quality match bullets and all are 1 1/2 moa capable with select milsurp ammuntion such as was selected and used by actual snipers using those weapons. Using "select" amuntion was understood back then as it is now.

Larry Gibson

While the British officially only used MkVII Ball for sniping, fact is any sniper that could find it would use the MkVIIIz long range boat tail ammo meant for Vickers Guns.
MG companies that had supplies of MkVIIIz would either trade some to snipers, or hide it when the snipers were around or it would be ripped off.

One problem was that as little as two hundred rounds of MkVII ammo could erode the throat badly enough to cause the boat tail Mk8 bullet to keyhole.
This depends on just how loose the bore and throat were when new.
A No.4 with little visible wear that still shot MkVII ammo with a high degree of accuracy might keyhole every shot with Mk8 bullets.

Another factor was that Cordite did not lend itself to flash suppresant additives, the muzzle flash of cordite was easier for the enemy to spot and call in mortars.
The Germans got very good at picking out the cordite muzzle flash. So good that when eastern eurpoean conscripts serving with the German army in France were issued captured Enfield rifles, German observers mistook them for Brits and called in artillery on their positions.

During WW1 Winchester manufacture MkVIIz ammo was also scrounged when available.
British MG gunners didn't care for it because the rims were said to be a bit on the thick side, which could lead to jams. The thick rim would act to tighten up headgap and be a accuracy improver in the SMLE (T) and P14 rifles.
Another resaon was that WW1 manufacture MkVII ammo could erode the throat badly enough to dtract from long range accuracy in as little as 500 rounds, with 1500 rnds being about the limit for precision long range sniping.
MkVIIz, either from Remington or Winchester, was much easier on the bore so the sniper could depend on a longer accurate bore life.

MG companies began sorting ammo , mainly checking rim thickness with a gauge before belting the ammo. Cases of ammo known to be manufacted closely to specifications would be marked with a Green Cross or spot of green paint. I think some cases had an actual green label attached.
This was the origin of Green Spot high accuracy ammunition.

The RAF had many problems with standard ball ammo in synchronized aerial guns, so from 1918 on they contracted for their own "Red spot" ammo.

I'd have to say that the No.4 (T) rifles were far more vulnerable to accuracy destroying bedding problems, especially in damp tropical climes. Many field expediant fixes were tried, most seem to have been thought up in the India China Burma theatre.

I don't know much about the 1903 Springfield but its said in WW1 the Germans were suprised at the accuracy of that rifle in the hands of the USMC. In one instance our Marines were making many clean kills at six hundred yards or more with iron sights only. That was with the original 1906 loads, not any special ammunition.
Both the 1903 and M1917 rifles had to put four of five shots within two MOA to pass preliminary sighting in of a new barrel. A flyer was expected for military ball, but probably most would have put all five in the zone, which was the intersection of vertical and horizontal marking bands, two inches wide at one hundred yards and four inches wide at two hundred yards.

[azcruiser]

Some of the old WW1 303 ammo is hard on the bore had a box of what I thought was tracer ammo. But was something called balloon buster for shooting blimps in WW1 had a white phosphorus tracer over a cordite charge that just wrecked my barrel . Still have a few but won't
shoot them in any of the guns I have now.

[1Shirt]

There is a tendancy today to think of all sniper activity to be long range, as indeed much of it today happens to be. However, if you go back in war history, you will find that a fair amound to sniper activity was not necessarily long range as we define it today.
1Shirt!

[herbert buckland]

Legendary Australian sniper Billy Sing mosly did his work at Gallipoli at ranges of less than 200yds,he did not youse a scoped rifle but had a spoter with scout scope,but that was trench warfare,I belive the distances were simular at Starlingrad

[Multigunner]

There is a tendancy today to think of all sniper activity to be long range, as indeed much of it today happens to be. However, if you go back in war history, you will find that a fair amound to sniper activity was not necessarily long range as we define it today.
1Shirt!

A article on fighting in the Pacific said that any serious wound in the upper body or head (and if you took effective cover the head and upper body were about the only vulnerable areas) from a shot fired from 200 yards or more was assumed to be from a sniper. The Japanese riflemen were greatly under rated at the time.
Most such wounds were from what we'd call Sharpshooters rather than snipers. Riflemen using iron sights, and with natural skills and reasonable training in marksmanship.
All Japanese troops were well trained in concealment, and picking their shots to save ammo.

In Jungle fighting the Telescopic sight served more to identify targets hidden in foliage rather than as an aid to long range shooting.

The Japanese did use long range volley fire to good effect. Often far beyond the range that the report of shots could be heard.
Bullets whizing by like a swarm of bees at range reduced velocities where there was no longer a sonic crack were very disconcerting.
A hundred rounds fired for every hit seemed like precision shooting when you could not detect the report of any of those shots, and had no clue as to where the shot came from.

[Von Dingo]

I don't have the book handy, but I have the book about German Sniping rifles in the World Wars around. I recall the ZF-41 as considered a sharpshooter rifle, not a true sniping rifle, just classified as such, for lack of a better description.

A post WWII article in a German soldier or militaria magazine was also quoted. In it some of the more successful surviving snipers were interviewed. They were referring to some ammo that had to be handed in when their units rotated West, out of the USSR. I don't know if by explosive they meant expanding, I can't really see 8MM slugs with explosives being produced during the war, or in general. They were quoted as being successful at some very long ranges on the Eastern front. This was realistically dependant on supply.

This is all off of the top of my head, I'm not playing expert or know it all.

[Multigunner]

They were referring to some ammo that had to be handed in when their units rotated West, out of the USSR. I don't know if by explosive they meant expanding, I can't really see 8MM slugs with explosives being produced during the war, or in general. They were quoted as being successful at some very long ranges on the Eastern front. This was realistically dependant on supply.

This is all off of the top of my head, I'm not playing expert or know it all.

Some British Snipers made limited use of incendiary and explosive bullets, when firing on fuel supplies and ammo dumps. This went back as far as the Jacobs Rifle which introduced explosive bullets for rifles, the bullets being used to detonate enemy artillery cassions.
A rifle caliber explosive bullet would probably be effective in ignition of Russian Mortar shell supplies and such. No real advantage in using these against humans. They probably wouldn't detonate in flesh anyway, though the Russian steel breatplate body armor would likely provide enough resistence for detonation.

Snipers often fired on equipment, putting a truck out of commission could put the troops it carried out of a fight. Putting an MG out of commission with an AP round was more effective than killing the gunner who could be quickly replaced.


When the German airforces began to lose manufacturing capacity many belt feed aerial guns (intended for heavy bombers that never got into production) were adapted for ground use. The belts some of these used were not interchangeable with the belts used by regular ground guns like the MG34 or MG42. The result was the adapted guns had only supplies of aerial combat ammunition, including tracers, Incendiary, and Explosive bullets.
Since the Germans had in the past executed British Troops over charges that the MkVII was an inhumane bullet they would want to avoid using ammo like this against British, American, and Western European troops, but had no such compunction against using these against Eastern Europeans and Asians.

[vintagesportsman]

196 grain soft nose Prvi Partisan - 2" @ 100yds - 170 grain RN GC cast - .75 @ 100 yards. Given that the majority of sniping is most definately done from 400 yds or less and a significant amount at 200 or less I would say that the 170 gr. cast boolit is a great round for target applications.

[PAT303]

I'm with multigunner on this,everytime,even today all you hear on the news is ''sniper fire'' which is the term used for any stray or single shots that are heard.I think everyone must remember that many men,again even today have only ever fired a rifle after they have joined and in a fight don't really do much but many men do shoot,like on this forum and could without much trouble headshoot a man on the other side out to 200mtrs or chest shoot out to 400mtrs with iron sights and have everyone in the area think it's a sniper.I also think a man that has signed up that has grown up with rifles would set his issued rifle up the way he wanted it and after a year or so of fighting would be a formidible opponant. Pat

[spqrzilla]

The most accomplished Finnish sniper used an iron sighted Mosin-Nagant rifle. It was his view that a scope put one's head up too high over the bore and exposed the sniper.

[mike in co]

did any of you note that camp perry will host a vintage sniper match next year ?
rifles made before the end of korean confilct..1955)

the bad news is only oem sniper rifles.......

and here i have rifle after rifle fitted with 4x scopes......


i have one 91/30 that might qualify...

mike in co

[NickSS]

I have read several books written by former military snipers of WWI and WWII from both sides. Equiment and ammo wise our snipers today have a huge edge. However, from what I have read most sniper rifles of most combatants were select rifles that were more accurate than the run of mil rifle coming out of the factories. In WWI the British snipers used mostly Ross Rifles for snipers as they were generally more accurate than the standard SMLE. Scope sights were low powered and not extremely clear copared to the optics of today. Most sniping was conducted from the forward trench lines at the opposing forward lines. Ranges were anything from less than 100 yards to around 400 yards. Most shooting at longer ranges was considered more harassing fire than sniping but occasional hits were made. The same type of equipment was used in WWII. Select good shooting rifles were selected and fitted with usually low power scopes of 4X or less and the snipers were given some training on range estimation and concealment as well as marksmanship training and sent to the front lines. Only the Russians made up snipper teams most other combatants sent out their snipers and individuals to do what ever damage they could. I read one interesting memoir by a german sniper who started quite informally using a captured Russian rifle with their ammo.
After a year his company commander sent him to sniper school where he was issued a scoped mauser rifle with a 4 X scope sight. He had to carry that rifle all over even on leave and never let it out of his sight. He had several hundred kills by the end of the war but he made one comment in the book that was revealing as to ranges mostly shot over. He mentions one shot he made at some Russians across a river at a range of 400 meters as being the longest shot he ever attempted. As I recall he hit his target but then had to run because the soviets opened fire on the house he was in with artilery. Most sniping was done at ranges of less than 300 yards and even closer in both WW from the info I have seen.

[Piedmont]

A week ago I finished Sniping in France by Major H. Hesketh-Prichard. He set up the first sniper school (and maybe only) of the Brits in WWI. He was involved in sniping beginning in 1915. I would like to make two comments concerning NickSS's good post above.

First, the main sniper rifle of the Brits in WWI was the scoped P-14, not the Ross, but for the reason Nick stated, it was more accurate than the SMLE.

Secondly the Brits WERE using two man scout/sniper teams from the beginning, at least anyone who went through the sniper school. The Germans were lone snipers as Nick stated.