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Thread: PSALM 19:11 (for you JMB fans)

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy shootingbuff's Avatar
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    PSALM 19:11 (for you JMB fans)

    PSALM 19:11
    1. In the beginning was the 1911, and the 1911 was THE pistol, and it was good. And behold the Lord said, “Thou shalt
    not muck with my disciple John's design for it is good and it worketh. For John made the 1911, and lo all of his weapons,
    from the designs which I, the Lord, gave him upon the mountain.”
    2. “And shouldst thou muck with it, and hang all manner of foul implements upon it, and profane its internal parts, thou
    shalt surely have malfunctions, and in the midst of battle thou shalt surely come to harm.”
    3. And as the ages passed, men in their ignorance and arrogance didst forget the word of the Lord and began to profane
    the 1911. The tribe of the gamesman did place recoil spring guides and extended slide releases upon the 1911 and their
    metal smiths didst tighten the tolerances and alter parts to their liking, their clearness of mind being clouded by lust.
    4. Their artisans did hang all manner of foul implements upon the 1911 and did so alter it that it became impractical to
    purchase. For lo, the artisans didst charge a great tax upon the purchasers of the 1911 so that the lowly field worker
    could not afford one. And the profaning of the internal parts didst render it unworkable when the dust of the land fell upon
    it.
    5. And lo, they didst install adjustable sights, which are an abomination unto the Lord. For they doth break and lose their
    zero when thou dost need true aim. And those who have done so will be slain in great numbers by their enemies in the
    great battle.
    6. And it came to pass that the Lord didst see the abomination wrought by man and didst cause, as he had warned,
    fearful malfunctions to come upon the abominations and upon the artisans who thought they could do no wrong.
    7. Seeing the malfunctions and the confusion of men the lord of the underworld did see an opportunity to further ensnare
    man and didst bring forth pistols made of plastic, whose form was such that they looked and felt like a brick, yet the eyes
    of man being clouded, they were consumed by the plastic pistol and did buy vast quantities of them.
    8. And being a deceitful spirit, the lord of the underworld did make these plastic pistols unamenable to the artisans of
    earth and they were unable to muck much with the design, and lo these pistols did appear to function.
    9. And the evil one also brought forth pistols in which the trigger didst both cock and fire them and which require a
    "dingus" to make them appear safe.
    10. But man being stupid did not understand these new pistols and didst proceed to shoot themselves with the plastic
    pistol and with the trigger cocking pistols for lo their manual of arms required great intelligence which man had long since
    forsaken. Yet man continue to gloat over these new pistols blaming evil forces for the negligent discharges which they
    themselves had committed.
    11. And when man had been totally ensnared with the plastic pistol, the lord of the underworld didst cause a plague of
    the terrible Ka-Boom to descend upon man and the plastic pistols delivered their retribution upon men. And there was
    a great wailing and gnashing of teeth in the land.
    12. Then seeing that the eyes of man were slowly being opened and that man was truly sorrowful for his sinful misdeeds,
    the Lord did send his messengers in the form of artisans who did hear and obey the teachings of the prophet and who
    didst restore the profaned 1911s to their proper configuration, and lo, to the amazement of men, they didst begin to work
    as the prophet had intended.
    13. And the men of the land didst drive out the charlatans and profaners from the land, and there was joy and peace
    in the land, except for the evil sprits which tried occasionally to prey on the men and women of the land and who were
    sent to the place of eternal damnation by the followers of John.
    sb

  2. #2
    Moderator Emeritus / Trusted loob groove dealer

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    Hallelujah, and AMEN!
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  3. #3
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by waksupi View Post
    Hallelujah, and AMEN!
    Yes Sir! Can I get another!
    GSSF RSO
    NRA RSO
    DU

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
    George Orwell

    These are the times that try men's souls.
    Thomas Payne

  4. #4
    Boolit Master


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    Wow, that is a keeper. Saint John Moses Browning, Blessings be Upon Him, would be proud.


    Cast Boolits Search Tool

    The Learning Never Stops!

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Part of the proper "following of St. John" would be to use the magazines the 1911 was originally designed to run with for best reliability as designed by John Browning. These feed smoother and and with less angularity in feeding.

    That ain't most of the designs out there now. Many of these were designed to feed rounds that the 1911 wasn't designed to feed..... and will feed those nonstandard rounds most of the time. The design compromises adopted reduced the pistol's reliability with the proper rounds.

    Which is going backwards.

    To the rest of the post, I also add an "Amen."

  6. #6
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    What brands would JMB approve of?

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy
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    Amen!
    Μολὼν λάβε


    Lord, make me fast and accurate. Let my aim be true and my hand faster than those who would seek to destroy me. Grant me victory over my foes and those that wish to harm to me and mine. Let not my last thought be “If only I had my gun”; and Lord if today is truly the day that You call me home, let me die in a pile of brass.



    I am out of town, enjoy your holidays.

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master
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    A tapered lip magazine that was supplied with his original pistol for US Army acceptance. I'm sure he wouldn't think much of our modern substitutes.

    Anything else does not feed the gun like it was meant to be fed. In "improving" things we often make the gun do something it was not designed to do. Unreliability results.

    Much has been made lately of the 1911's feed characteristics. The round was NOT designed to go straight into the chamber; glancing off the frame ramp is essential to its operation. With a tapered lip magazine, after the essential frame glance occurs the round is fed in better alignment with the chamber than many modern types that are hawked in the Gunzines.

    Shouldn't be surprising. JMB designed it that way. Yet we ignore magazine design when JMB was designing the original specs for the gun. Make no mistake; JMB not only designed the gun, but how the magazine was intended to work as well.

    Yet somehow we think we know more than the original designer in how the gun was meant to be fed! That is definitely a losing proposition, yet we manage to ignore his magazine design all the time. To our detriment.

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master JIMinPHX's Avatar
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    There was a reason why John Browning's middle name was Moses.

    He showed the people the way.
    “an armed society is a polite society.”
    Robert A. Heinlein

    "Idque apud imperitos humanitas vocabatur, cum pars servitutis esset."
    Publius Tacitus

  10. #10
    Boolit Master derek45's Avatar
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    I suspect JMB is mighty proud of the great success of the beloved 1911 and what we are doing with it today.








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  11. #11
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    Beauty's.

    I want to go in and hug my 1895 now...

  12. #12
    Boolit Master KYCaster's Avatar
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    The first to muck with the original design was the U.S. Army. They made him put that gawd-awful grip safety on an otherwise fantastic gun.

    Kind of frustrating when you have to alter your hand position just to get the gun to fire.

    Jerry
    Buzzard's luck!! Can't kill nothin', nothin'll die!!

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master
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    "I suspect JMB is mighty proud of the great success of the beloved 1911 and what we are doing with it today."

    Some of it would horrify him. Specifically:

    Eight shots in flush flt magazines. If he felt he could have gotten an eighth shot in a flush fit without compromising something, he would have. Eight shots in flush fit is a minus feature for dependability on the second to last shot or last shot.

    Three to 3.5 inch variants. As to reliability, these are an extreme joke. Latitude for proper functioning is down to zero.

    Swartz safeties on the Kimber. Their rendition of "drop safety" is a reliability downside that some have trouble with. I don't think he would have considered the Series 80 modifications to the Colt as needed, either, but at least it's not what the Kimber has.

    Short target wadcutters. He'd say, "You're trying to get the pistol to run 100 percent with that stubby round and you're doing WHAT to the magazines to make them feed? It's a fighting pistol, not a paper punch. What's worse, you're using the same crappy magazines that feed stubby target wadcutters and then promoting them as actually superior to my original design when using ammo closer to its design spec in feeding?!!!?"

    "What are you guys smoking, anyway?"

    Shok Buff? The gun was designed to be struck in the frame by the slide in that area. Another area for malfunctions.

    Why did you ditch the small radius firing pin stop? (Army did that, so blame them).

    Front cocking serrations? Gimme a break. If you can't cock them as issued, sticking your mitts by the muzzle ain't gonna help.

    Lowering the frame ramp is an improvement? Oh yeah, you're feeding those stubby rounds in eight shot magazines with no front skirt that tend to nosedive and make the round strike extra low on the frame ramp. I guess one bad idea needs another idea to make up for its shortcomings.

    Why are you trying to make the gun feed extra blunt nosed bullets? Remember, the round is designed to glance off the frame ramp on its way to the chamber, then you feed it rounds that not only glance poorly, but are likely to wedge against the roof of the chamber in feeding. Why go there?

    What were you early bullet designers thinking when you designed 45 ACP rounds that were supposedly suitable for this pistol?

    There were a few things that I think he would have been okay with, like the extension of the grip safety tang in the A1 variant, and I'm sure he would have thought a lowered ejection port would do no harm, but I'm sure the shorty variants wouild have horrified him the most of all.

    The gamer crowd smugly feels they have improved the 1911 greatly.

    There is ample evidence that they've screwed it up as much as helped it.
    Last edited by 35remington; 12-19-2010 at 11:05 PM.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Pat I think the 95 was his revenge on Oliver for cheating him out of the 85.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master derek45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    "I suspect JMB is mighty proud of the great success of the beloved 1911 and what we are doing with it today."

    Some of it would horrify him. Specifically:

    Eight shots in flush flt magazines. If he felt he could have gotten an eighth shot in a flush fit without compromising something, he would have. Eight shots in flush fit is a minus feature for dependability on the second to last shot or last shot. ...
    I disagree.

    I've been running WILSON and CMC 8 round mags with 100% reliability for years.
    some are over 17 years old and still work perfectly.

    I've been to classes were we shot 1000 rounds, and IPSC matches were they've been dropped, kicked, stepped on, and generally abused on a regular basis.


    If the 1911 is setup and tuned correctly, it will run 8 rounds mags all day

    I agree with you on the Kimber Swartz, and "series 80" too.
    My Grandfather didn't need that krapp fighting in World War One.
    My father didn't need it when he carried the 1911, nor do I.
    .


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    Moderator Emeritus / Trusted loob groove dealer

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    I agree when you start hanging the gizmos and doo dads on a 1911, you are taking away from the original design, and making it much less effective for a defensive weapon. Get rid of the bells and whistles if you carry one day in and day out for social purposes. Although I carry a Combat Commander a lot, I still believe my full size 1911 is the go-to gun for the purpose.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy shootingbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by derek45 View Post
    I disagree.

    I've been running WILSON and CMC 8 round mags with 100% reliability for years.
    some are over 17 years old and still work perfectly.

    I've been to classes were we shot 1000 rounds, and IPSC matches were they've been dropped, kicked, stepped on, and generally abused on a regular basis.


    If the 1911 is setup and tuned correctly, it will run 8 rounds mags all day

    I agree with you on the Kimber Swartz, and "series 80" too.
    My Grandfather didn't need that krapp fighting in World War One.
    My father didn't need it when he carried the 1911, nor do I.
    It has been stated by known smiths that the only after-market mags to run was Chip's and Wilson's.

    I am glad to see informed comments about the 1911 here and not brand/platform bashing.

    Me, I agree with all that has been stated. Only thing that needed to be changed was the sights.

    You all have a Great Christmas.
    sb

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    +1 with waksupi................nuff said............................Lee
    Been paddlin' upstream all my life, don't see no reason to turn around now.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullshop View Post
    Pat I think the 95 was his revenge on Oliver for cheating him out of the 85.
    So JMB got shafted by Winchester on the 1885?

    Who is the most innovative firearms designer of all time? JMB.

    Just my lonely 3 are remarkable- 1894, 1895, and 1911.

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master
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    To clarify my points I'm gonna have to bash a little; some of the "popular" magazines and modifications are the target of this thread. The criticism is well founded; what's unfortunate is that none of the gunzines are willing to offend their advertisers. The result is modifications that are ill advised.

    The only thing the eighth shot does is increase the chance the gun will not perform properly.

    I did not say it would not work all the time for some......only that the chance of malfunction was increased. Increase the loads from "gamer" levels and the slide strikes the frame with greater force, increasing the odds that the last shot will misfeed. You can risk your standing in IPSC; for me, I may be risking my life. It's a personal choice I will not be making in favor of the eighth shot in a flush fit design. Others will do as they like.

    It is the combination of things we use....load, gun, magazine, bullet shape, etc. that determine whether the gun will work or not.

    One thing is unquestioned: the eighth shot is NOT a reliability increaser. When springs take a set, the load is heavy, etc. things will go south on you in a hurry.

    Ask me about my Ruger P97 sometime. It has the eighth shot added, and they copied Chip McCormick's magazine design, right down to the weak Shooting Star springs and crappy Devel inspired Power Mag follower. It jams wickedly.

    And let's face it, the no front skirt/short rear skirt follower on the Power Mag is a serious weakness, or the Chipster wouldn't have gone to the Power Mag Plus. I know a great many discontent with other design features, including some offered by Wilson. So much for "improvement."

    "Gamerism" has added some poor ideas to 1911 design. Unquestionably. This has misled many into thinking that their practices are "best" for a 1911, and they most assuredly are not in a great many cases.

    And there are all kinds of misinformed gunsmiths out there, just like there are many hacks who work on cars. Not everyone who hangs up a shingle gives good advice, and some of it is downright poor.

    Which probably prompted the posting of this thread. Pardon me, but I must expand on it a little, and point out a few of the things that were NOT intended by JMB, and an eighth shot was one of them. So were other magazine design characteristics.

    Improvements are not improvements when they attempt to alter how the gun works in such a fundamental way.

    Is this post swimming upstream in some cases? Perhaps. But we have to do that when the current is not carrying us in the direction we want to go. It's been long overdue that we started questioning "popular" choices and asked ourself whether that popularity was deserved. For me, those things were not working. And possibly for others as well, so questioning "trendy improvements" is a good thing.
    Last edited by 35remington; 12-20-2010 at 01:49 AM.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check