7MM MAG. & CAST BULLETS

[waksupi]

There HAS been a develpment on the 7mm Magnum. This past weekend, our club voted the 7mag. one of the most worthless big game cartridges on the market, unless loaded down.

[StarMetal]

Ric

It's apparent you don't like the 7mm Mag, but contrary to what you say it's good big game round.

Joe

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I've 2 one shot kills w/ it on elk. IF the game is bigger/tougher it is a good choice. I like for elk & larger game.

It also depends on how far you have to shoot. On real long shots (500yds ) it's retained energy w/ heavy bullets makes it usefull. There is also less drop to worry about because of the heavy bullets high ballestic coefficent.

[waksupi]

Yep, they are fine, if you like loosing a quarter of bloodshot meat on the game you shoot. And they encourage people to try longer shots, that they haven't the experience to take, on animals. As I have said before, the more I have shot long range competition over the years, the less inclined I am to shoot at a game animal at over two hundred yards. And the 7 mag has to get out to 4-500 yards to get the velocity down to a sensible level. By the time the bullet is out there, the wind is playing in the game. They would be better left for sniper use, where you are trying to blow the hell out of something. Not for game. We figure they are about the most worthless rifle you could have for mountain hunting, and not much better on the plains for anything bigger than varmints.

[StarMetal]

Ric,

Today there's no excuse to choose the proper bullet construction for the task you have for it. If you are going to long distance only then you get a bullet contructed for that. If you're going to shoot close up you get a heavier constructed bullet. I will agree that you don't need any magnum rifle for close up. Me I see the 7mag for long range hunting, I sure wouldn't want it in close up woods hunting. I understand what you're saying about loading it down, to me that would be for closer ranger.

You can say the same thing about alot of the others too, like the 300 Win Mag.

Joe

[X-man]

I was always been a tried and true .30 cal fan, at least until this past year. I got my first 7mm Rem Mag in a trade. It was a Remington 700 BDL made back in the 70s and a true example of old school Remington rifle building. It came with a couple boxes of god only knows how old factory ammo. As I was going to rip it apart and use the action for a custom built .300 Win Mag I figured what the heck and took the rifle to the local gravel pit.

I was shooting 160gr Federal ammo with it. I should also mention that it was my first hunting rifle that had a muzzle break on it. Shooting off the hood of my pick-up at 100 yards I shot a five shot group that measured under 1/2 inch! Then I did it again! Wow! I was on to something here! Moved out to 200 yards and then 300 yards...no matter what, the rifle consistently shot 1/2 MOA or better!

It impressed me so much that I went out and picked up a couple of boxes of factory ammo. 175gr Remington Core-Lockt, 150gr Winchester PP, and 160gr Federal loads. Went back to the pit and did some more shooting. It didn't matter what I fed the rifle, it stayed sub-MOA every time, and that was with factory ammo and not premium stuff at that and shooting 5 round groups!

It impressed the hell out of me! The muzzle break tamed recoil, so much so that the 7mm Rem Mag was much more pleasant to shoot than the sporterized .303 Lee-Enfields I'd also brought along to test fire.

I ultimately decided not to tear down the rifle and instead used it for my Moose hunt this past Fall. The only thing I changed was to switch out the BDL stock for a laminated LSS take-off. Once bedded, the rifle shot even better with the new laminate stock. The latter made much more sense for hunting Newfoundland in the Fall with our wet climate. I even got used to the muzzle break. I wouldn't want to shoot it regularly without hearing protection, but I had no ill effects after dropping my nice little bull Moose with one shot. Hit him broadside and punched through his rib, tore up the heart and exited the opposite. I found one petal embedded under the hide on the far side, so I believe almost all the bullet's energy was expended in the moose. He only took a few steps and piled up. I have zero complaints with the 7mm Rem Mag!

Since then, the 7mm has impressed me so much that I've purchase a second rifle in the caliber. I had intended to pick up a .300 Win Mag Remington 700 Sendero, before the local stores, etc... were sold out, since Remington had dropped it from their catalog. I'd been wanting one in .300 Win Mag for years, but something always seemed to come up...then I happened across a NIB Sendero made in the early 90s (before Remington's quality control started to slip) at a very attractive price, only thing it was in 7mm Rem Mag. With no hesitation, I bought it on the spot! I have to say I'm very pleased with it. Fit, finish and function is flawless. The older H.S. Precision kevlar/graphite stock in black with the grey spider webbing is solid and seems built for me (much better than the later ones IMHO) but more importantly, this rifle was also a sub-MOA shooter! It doesn't digest the wide variety of ammo as the other 7mm, but it seems to shoot almost everything well. The extra weight of the rifle seems to eat recoil and I have no problems enjoying it either in the field or at the range.

Guys who've known me for years can't believe that I've "converted" to the 7mm, especially considering how big a fan I was of the .308, .30-06, .300 Win Mag and .338 Win Mag. I've got buddies who live in British Columbia. They regularly use their 7mm Rem Mags to take Grizzly and large Black Bears using premium 160gr bullets. No complaints from them either! I plan on using my 7mm this Spring for my black bear hunt out in Central Newfoundland. Anyone who is familiar with Newfoundland know just how big our bears get. With plenty of food, zero predation and very light hunting pressure we're home to some massive black bears. 400-450 lbs is average and I've seen bears taken that are in the 600-700lb range! Toting my 7mm RM, I'm not going to feel the slightest bit undergunned!

That said, I couldn't get either rifle to shoot well using cast bullets. I can accept that, afterall, it's designed to be a scorcher and has "magnum" in the title, so I guess some sacrifices have to be made! You won't hear me dismiss the 7mm RM anymore though, I'm now a believer!

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Perhaps some background info is in order.
I have 2 7MMs a 7mm/06 & a 7mm mag.
For 6yrs of collage (2yrs. grad school), I went to the Provo shooting range almost every sat. (except for hunting season) and shot 100 rounds out of the 7mm/06 on 1 sat and then the 7mm mag on the other sat.
I started in the 1st yr at 100yds. but was soon shooting at 200yrds after about 2-3mo.
The 2nd year I made the 1st of my metal steel plate targets. I set it out at 500yds. I shot at it till I got 80 hits per 100 rounds w/ both guns in a consistant manner.
Then I moved the plate to 600yds & did the same thing. I shot litteraly 1000's of rounds.
The steelplate is 12"wX18"h. the vital zone for a deer/elk.
This shooting gave me the ability to judge distance at a level that amazes my hunting buddies still today.
Now I shoot cast at anything 200yds & under and go through 1000+ cast a summer if given the chance. I experemented W/ many j bullets
bit many years ago setted on the 145gr spbt speer for the 7mm/06 at about 3050"/s. and the 162gr spbt in the 7mm mag also at 3050'/s.
I have passed up many shots at deer at 700 or more yds while standing next to friends who emptied there guns, sometimes several times. I don't think they hit anything except dirt.

" A man has got to know his limatations."

I can put a bullet in the vitals 80% of the time at 600yds on a standing deer/elk. With eather of those 2 rifles.
I CONFESS TO ENJOY SHOOTING.
ICONFESS TO ENJOY SHOOTING THE 7MM/06 THE MOST IN RIFLES.
BUT THE 7MM MAG IS A GREAT ROUND WHEN USED CORRECTLY.
It is now used only were long shots will occur (past 300yds), and on elk or larger game.
The 7mm/06 is my deer rifle.
BY THE WAY I CARRY MY 44 FOR SHORT RANGE.
That's when I'm not using a ML.

/

[StarMetal]

...and to put boom boom in proper phase, the 280 Remington is basically a 7mm-06 and so is a 7x64 Brenneke...all fine rounds and in my opinion better then the 270 Win.

Gee, and thing Waksupi basically was saying the 7mag was a piece of crap...hmmmmm


Joe

[MTWeatherman]

Yep, they are fine, if you like loosing a quarter of bloodshot meat on the game you shoot. And they encourage people to try longer shots, that they haven't the experience to take, on animals. As I have said before, the more I have shot long range competition over the years, the less inclined I am to shoot at a game animal at over two hundred yards. And the 7 mag has to get out to 4-500 yards to get the velocity down to a sensible level. By the time the bullet is out there, the wind is playing in the game. They would be better left for sniper use, where you are trying to blow the hell out of something. Not for game. We figure they are about the most worthless rifle you could have for mountain hunting, and not much better on the plains for anything bigger than varmints.

I'll have to jump to the defense of the 7mm Mag and I don't even own one. I'm partial to the .300 Win for elk and long range work. However, the cartidge works and works well...more than needed for deer I grant you but a great long range performer.

I suspect your statement has some validity in the heavy timber of Northwest Montana, however, cross the divide into Central Montana and the Big Sky Country frequently means a lot of sky to shoot through. Yes, there is elk hunting in heavy jackpine and deer hunting in brushy river bottoms here. However, just as likely you'll be shooting across an alpine park or ravine into open timber at that elk...and across open coulees or breaks at that deer. In most cases, ruined meat is the hunters fault...improper bullet choice to some extent but largely bad bullet placement are to blame. Where bad placement is concerned, better to have some meat damage than lose an animal. I would suggest a 175gr. Nosler Partition for those in your club who've had a bad experience with 7mm bullets that open up too rapidly inside 400 yards.

Put the bullet into the lungs, avoid the shoulder and don't shoot at animals facing away from you. Follow that, and you won't lose much meat. Shoot at animals on the run and you have to be willing to accept meat damage. I don't consider 300 yards or even 400 yards to be a long shot for someone who knows how to shoot, takes the time to make the shot, and doesn't try it unless conditions are ideal for it. However, I'll certainly agree that a magnum...7mm or other, doesn't give you the right to be a game slob by shooting at animals 1/4 mile away when, based on my experience, the average hunter would be lucky to make the shot at 200 yards.

I did a mental check of current and past elk hunting buddies and the rifles they've used...6-7mm Mags, 2-.300 Win Mags, 2-30'06, 1-.358 Norma Mag, and 1-.338 Mag. When it came to deer and antelope one of the 7mm hunters switches to a .270 and the .358 shooter to a 25'06...the .338 shooter doesn't hunt them. The 7mm was the hands down winner...but the Magnums were the rule when it came to elk. Those are very experienced elk hunters...in their late 40s to early 60s...all of them well beyond what I would define as an "average hunter". They've each taken a number of elk and obviously don't share your clubs assessment or they would have switched long ago.


I use a .300 Win Mag with a 180 gr. Partition for both elk and antelope...used to use it for deer also but now save them for cast bullet work. You might question its use on animals smaller than elk...like those antelope. However, using the same bullet makes life pretty simple, no readjusting sights for different hunts, and the trajectory is familiar. Slip that bullet behind the front shoulder of an antelope and the vast majority of that .300s energy goes into the hillside. On a broad side shot, there's no waste. Not enought meat on those two two or three antelope ribs to worry about.

[C1PNR]

Yep, they are fine, if you like loosing a quarter of bloodshot meat on the game you shoot.

The biggest offender I've seen for bloodshot meat is the .243! One of our California hunt club (near King City, Monterey County) members, old guy named Charlie (and since passed on to the great hunt club in the sky ), shot one of the biggest Blacktail bucks I've ever seen. That thing showed 145 lb. on the scale we had in the meat shack, with the nose still on the floor!

I'll never forget helping my buddy Rob clean that deer. We fed so much bloodshot meat to the dogs it made us both sick. If Charlie got 40 lbs of meat (we always bone out everything) I'd be surprised.

Several years later I ended up buying Charlie's .243 from Bob Wood, another friend from the club (also since deceased ). It's a Ruger "Made in the 200th year of American Liberty" with a bull barrel. Very accurate rifle and I like it a lot. But, I promised myself that if I EVER shoot at a deer with it, it'll be a head shot or not at all.

I have a 7 Mag, not by choice but by chance. It was supposed to be a .338 Win Mag. My number was drawn at a Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation dinner/raffle. The program listed a Ruger Stainless Composite in .338, but when we settled up it turned into the same rifle, only in 7 Rem Mag.

I've not used it hunting, although I do take it along as a backup rifle. It has proved to be surprisingly accurate, right out of the box. All I did was put a scope (3.5 - 10) on it and shoot some reloads provided by Bob Wood's Daughter after his death. Bob shot a lot of 7 Mag and had an accurate load for his rifle that proved to be accurate in mine as well.

Anyway, sorry to ramble but that's MY story and I'm stickin' to it!!

[carpetman]

C1pnr---odd how our experiences differ in the .243. I've seen a bunch shot with .243 seeing as how son in law,grandson and I have all 3 used it for years and Ive not found it to be bad at all in bloodshot meat---most were shot behind front shoulder where no meat to ruin. Your example of a 145 pound deer and not having 40 pounds of meat would be correct. You lose about half of hoof weight when you gut it and skin it and about half again when you debone.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Deer in my home state are mulies & tend to run a little larger. A good 4 point will run 175lbs. gutted.
But like I said I much prefer the 7MM/06 on deer out to 600yds. Which I use to be able to make consistant vital zone hits at.
Haven't had the chance to really practice long range rifle shooting lately as have been focused on pistols & ML for past few years. And they shut down the old Orem rifle range were you could shoot 500 & 600yds.
Beyond that range I'm reluctant to shoot, and probibly would not, if had to I would definitly prefer the 7MM Mag.
I think the mag is a better large game (Elk & up) cartrige.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Any new developements? Did the boat people repent and get to shooting?

[Oldfeller]

Nope, but the 7mm soupcan slug weighs in at 135 grains checked and lubed. That's a fair middle weight bullet that can go upwards in velocity before it gets "dizzy" on you from the spin factor.

(I figured you'd check this thread too)

Oldfeller

[StarMetal]

Boomboom

You're 7mm-06 should be giving up very very little to a 7 mag. At over 500-600 yards believe it or not the 6.5-06 beats the 7 mag in flatness. It's an impressive round.

I have see the 243 Win as one of the greatest whitetail deer killers ever. I know woman up in PA that shot 13 whitetails and only one had to be shot twice. I shot deer with the 243 and I didn't get alot of bloodshot meat. Depends where you hit them and what bullet you use. I saw a friend shoot a deer with a Model 99 Savage in 300 Savage with 150 gr bullet and he had to cut off the whole left side of the deer as it was bloodshot. Now that's definately not a high velocity super exposive round. I think we see impressive incidents happen and they stick in our heads and we form a basis of thinking on that.

Joe

[waksupi]

Joe, I think that all goes back to bullet selection. It seems the old .30-30 does as much damage as anything else I've seen to deer.

[StarMetal]

Ric,

You're absolutely right. I found that for deer hunting a good jacketed bullet for the 243 is the Hornady 100 gr roundnose.

On the 30-30 you're right Ric because the jackets on 30-30 bullets are much thinner then say the 30-06 because of their much lower velocity.

Back when the 308 was young and the bullet makers and ammon makers didn't really have a dedicated 308 bullet, I know of alot of hunters that lost deer with the 308 because the bullet just punched through the deer like a solid. Kinda like you can't take a 150 gr bullet for a 300 Win Mag and load it in a 308 and expect it to work at much lower velocity (before we get posts about this, this situation doesn't exist anymore, manufacturers are very atuned to cartridge velocities now). Anyways Ric my best friend was loading 30-30 bullets for his 308 rifle. Said he wasn't having any deer get away because the bullet didn't expand enough.

But you are much right about proper bullet selection.

Joe

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
HAVE TO AGREE .
MOST IMPORTANT IS BULLET PLACEMENT.
THEN A GOOD BULLET.
Worst blood shot deer I ever saw was a 2 pt. hit by my friends 300 WM with a 165 gr. bullet back in the 1970's.
Cast bullets do not seem to do that in my experance.

[dualsport]

Please don't tell my very old 700 7mm Rem Mag that it can't shoot cbs, it thinks it can. You don't have to load a magnum up to magnum velocities, they will still shoot ok and not blow up if you know what you're doing. That said, I'm aware there are much better choices for easy loadin' cb style.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Oh I have shot 100's of low vel cast out of my rem. 700 as well. But as I have a 7MM/06 , I stopped, shoOting cast in the 7MM mag. except when I am fireforming scroumged brass to its chamber.
The 7MM/06 has had near 10,000 cast fired out of it.
I never worked up any mid. or high vel. loads in the 7MM mag.