Are you poisoned? The lead blood levels poll...

Lee, I hear ya sir. And Pat makes some good points as well.

I look at the subject this way......our "mission" here is to facilitate hobby and sporting interest in cast boolits, and a part of that mission is to dispel myths that surround the hobby--things like, 'Marlin Micro-Groove barrels aren't appropriate for cast boolits', or 'polygonal rifling and cast boolits don't get along'. BUSTED. This whole lead toxicity issue is WAY OUTTA HAND, far beyond reasonableness or good faith public health concerns. It's likely another example of the Mastercard Marxists who savaged college campuses in the late 1960's finding jobs in public and private sector niches that allow them to continue their assault on common sense and Judeo-Christian values from positions of authority.

NUKE THE CONDORS.

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Originally Posted by imashooter2

Every time bullet casting comes up in discussion on another board there will be a poster that responds with something along the lines of:

"OMG! Don't you know that lead is poisonous and hazardous material? Don't go near it or you'll need serious medical help. A single ingot in your basement will kill your parakeet!"

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This is why the sheep are scared of lead, direct from midway:

Warning
The following firearm-related activities may expose you and others in the area to substances known to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm:

* Firearms cleaning
* Firearms discharging
* Bullet casting activities
* Ammunition handling and reloading
* Gunsmithing activities
* Hand and power-tool use

Discharging firearms in poorly ventilated areas, cleaning firearms or handling ammunition may result in exposure to lead and other substances known to the State of California to cause birth defects, reproductive harm and other serious physical injury. Have adequate ventilation at all times. Wash hands thoroughly after exposure.

Melting lead and casting lead objects will expose you and others in the area to lead, which is known to cause birth defects, other reproductive harm and cancer.

Reducing Exposure
Lead contamination in the air, in the dust, and on your skin is invisible. Keep children and pregnant women away during use and until cleanup is complete. Risk can be reduced—but not eliminated—with strong ventilation; washing hands immediately after use of these products before eating or smoking; and careful cleaning of surfaces and floors with disposable wipes, after lead dust has had a chance to settle. Use a lead-specific cleaner with EDTA, or a high-phosphate detergent (like most detergents sold for electric dishwashers) and bag wipes for disposal.

Yeah, I got lead posioning, can't pass a single WW laying lonesome in a parking lot without bringing it home to be with all it's relatives, never met a scrap of lead I didn't like, can't bring a firearm home without getting a suitable mold for it, in fact judge any additions I'm gonna make to my collection by the avalability of suitable molds. Cannot resist casting a few extra boolits no matter how tired my arm may be. Am in a constant search for improved groups from my simple 'ol lead boolits. I judge a gun not by how it it shoots, but by how well it shoots cast. Am I posioned? You're danged tooten' I am :)

My blood test came in at 18 last year. first time it has been elavated. been casting for along time. this wa the first time the test showed high.I had been doing a lot of indoor shooting 22 rimfire, and bowling pin shoots with a bunch of big bore. quit shooting indoors. My doctor was not to worried but the state of Idaho called twice with alot of good questions.

Started casting in 1979 in a basement.At some point I did get a small fan to blow away fumes when a headache would come on.I shoot C/W muskets in timed events so biteing the minne between the teeth was the fastest way to load.so I had a lot of lead between me teethI also smelted tons of lead to sell to other shooters then.As most of us did back then I smoked and drank when casting also.I welded and striped a lot of lead paint.
So when I had my 1/2 century tuneup a couple years ago I had the doc test for heavy metals figuring with all my bad habats I was doomed!
Hell they said I was in the normal range. Now that was the about the only thing they found in that physical that was Ok but hey!
Just wait.Mercury is the next thing.In a all fluorescent tubes there is a small bit of mercury.The compact fluorescent ones they want you to buy to replace your standard incandesent bulbs have a couple atoms of mercury in em.Read about some greenie that busted one in her house.Had the hasmat clean up bill of 2K

Here lies a real threat. If the America thinks foreign countries are going to abide by our health laws and produce safe export products as below, lead free dishes etc., good luck... :rolleyes:


China Investigates Contaminated Toothpaste


By DAVID BARBOZA and WALT BOGDANICH








DANYANG, China, May 21 — Chinese authorities are investigating whether two companies from this coastal region exported tainted toothpaste as more contaminated product, including some made for children, has turned up in Latin America.



A team of government investigators arrived here Sunday afternoon and closed the factory of the Danyang City Success Household Chemical Company, a small building housing about 30 workers in a nearby village, according to villagers and one factory worker. The government also questioned the manager of another toothpaste maker, Goldcredit International Trading, which is in Wuxi, about an hour’s drive southeast of here.



No tainted toothpaste has been found in the United States, but a spokesman for the Food and Drug Administration said yesterday that the agency would be taking “a hard look” at whether to issue an import alert.



Authorities in the Dominican Republic said they seized 36,000 tubes of toothpaste suspected of containing diethylene glycol, an industrial solvent and prime ingredient in some antifreeze. Included were tubes of toothpaste marketed for children with bubble gum and strawberry flavors sold under the name of “Mr. Cool Junior.”



Toothpaste containing the toxic solvent was also found in Panama and Australia in the last week.



Bautista Rojas Gómez, the secretary of health of the Dominican Republic, said the toothpaste, with diethylene glycol listed as an ingredient, was found in stores and warehouses across the country, including near the Haitian border.



Diethylene glycol is the same poison that the Panamanian government unwittingly mixed into cold medicine last year, killing at least 100 people. In that case, the poison falsely labeled as glycerin, a harmless syrup, originated in China, shipping records show. Diethylene glycol is generally less expensive than its chemical cousin glycerin.



Panamanian authorities said they believed the tainted toothpaste found in their country, containing up to 4.6 percent diethylene glycol, came from China.



Executives from both companies under investigation in China denied in interviews on Monday that they had exported any toothpaste containing diethylene glycol to Panama.



“We didn’t do this; we didn’t make the bad stuff,” said Shi Lei, a manager at Danyang City Success. “It was probably someone else.“



But Ms. Shi and other toothpaste makers in this region said that diethylene glycol had been used in toothpaste in China for years and that producers believed it was not very harmful.



Government investigators arrived here just days after customs officials in Panama said that they had discovered diethylene glycol in 6,000 tubes of toothpaste. The toothpaste was being sold under the English brand names Mr. Cool and Excel.



There have been no reports of deaths tied to toothpaste containing the chemical.



Dr. Douglas Throckmorton, deputy director for the Center for Drug Evaluation and Research at the F.D.A., said diethylene glycol levels found in some Panamanian toothpaste was nearly 50 times greater than what is deemed safe. “Kids swallow toothpaste,” Dr. Throckmorton said. “That is going to be a concern to you.”



Suspicion over China’s role in the tainted toothpaste and cold medicine comes just weeks after investigators blamed two Chinese companies for intentionally shipping pet food ingredients contaminated with an industrial chemical to the United States, leading to one of the largest pet food recalls in history. The cases are fueling mounting concerns about the quality and safety of China’s food and drug exports and threatening to turn into a trade dispute.



After initially rejecting any Chinese role in the tainted pet food, Beijing officials banned the use of melamine, an industrial chemical used in fertilizer and plastics, from vegetable proteins. Melamine and several related chemicals had been discovered in contaminated pet food ingredients. Chinese officials also promised to overhaul its food safety regulations and tighten export controls.



Indeed, the government seems to have responded quickly to reports last weekend about contaminated toothpaste. Hu Keyu, the manager at Goldcredit International, said investigators had talked to him over the weekend because his company was the first to sell and export toothpaste under the brand label Mr. Cool. But he and his staff insisted that Goldcredit never exported to Panama, and that this year the company had exported only a small amount of Mr. Cool toothpaste to Australia. Goldcredit executives said they did not sell toothpaste under the Excel brand name.



Mr. Hu said his company exports toothpaste, toothbrushes, glue and other goods to the United States, Europe and other regions but that his company no longer uses diethylene glycol. He said, however, that most toothpaste makers in this region use diethylene glycol because it is considered a cheap substitute for glycerin.



“You know, if you’re in the export market, the margins are small, so people use the substitute,” he said. “Even one percent or half a percent price difference can matter to people here.”



Executives from Goldcredit and Danyang said the brand Mr. Cool had been copied by several other companies and that numerous trading companies could be exporting the products.



Danyang City Success Household Chemical, however, said that while it did not export to Panama, it has used diethylene glycol in its toothpaste, and that the government does not have a clear regulation on how much can be added. Danyang City Success is a small company in a village in Danyang, a city whose entrance boasts that it has been designated one of China’s “national sanitary” cities for its cleanliness.



Danyang City Success produces both Mr. Cool and Excel and exports toothpaste around the world, including to Europe and Africa, company executives said. But this afternoon, villagers and one young factory worker, who declined to give her name, said that investigators had arrived Sunday night and closed the factory to investigate possible contamination in its exports. Ms. Shi, one of the managers along with her husband, met a reporter at the entrance to the factory and insisted her company had nothing to do with the case in Panama. Inside the gate a team of investigators could be seen meeting with company officials and then departing with a bag of documents. Villagers said the investigators were provincial and local officials, including the village’s Communist party secretary.



The sister of the party secretary, who only gave her name as Miss Hu, said Danyang City Success had been around for four or five years and that it was run by a former salesman and his wife, Ms. Shi, who grew up in the village.



“He used to sell packaging materials. Then he saved up his money and started this toothpaste company,” she said. “But lately the company has been struggling.”



Mr. Hu at Goldcredit said that while he did not produce the toothpaste shipped to Panama, diethylene glycol had been used for years at very low levels in Chinese toothpaste as a glycerin substitute. “If diethylene glycol were poisonous,” he said, “all Chinese people would have been poisoned.”





David Barboza reported from Danyang, China, and Walt Bogdanich from New York. R. M. Koster contributed from Panama; Guangming Xu and Rujun Shen contributed from China.

I just voted in the poll, but think the results can be a bit misleading.
I'm typically at 22-28 mg/dl, but I have been shooting IPSC at a reasonably
well ventilated (yet very contaminated) indoor range one night per week
for about 27 yrs, maybe 40 times per year. No symptoms.

I also cast indoors, but for both the shooting and casting am very careful
to not eat or drink when hands are contaminated.

The possible misleading results would be to assume that my 'elevated'
lead is due to casting, when I am nearly certain it is not.

Bill

I also voted in the "tested /no bad results section."
Now just a bit of background history FWIW..
I was tested regularly several years ago while employed for a small manufacturer of soldering and brazing supplies. Damn needle was big! and it hurt too. My baseline was normal/low and it never wavered during my employ. (I never got stupid with eating/drinking around there either). Co-workers who basically performed the same tasks as I, and behaved similarly around the stuff were not all so lucky. Some had wildly varying levels, and were regularly banned from the smelting/manufacturing areas till their levels dropped back down to "safe" numbers. Others were like me, and their numbers never moved. I never could see that some were doing things so much differently than me that I could point and say.."Uh Huh!" And we all had the regular mix of hunters/shooters/etc. So the outside contribution to lead levels might have made the difference in some results?? So go figure....................................Lee

dont ever think its impossible to happen to you. I showed no symtoms at all and had it tested because i suffer from migrane headaches. My lead level was 89 the first time and it put the doctors into a panic. I was treated with two rounds of chelting theropy and that go it down to below 20 but about two years later it was up to 40 and i went through it again. My best friend who shoots more then i do has medical problems and i suggested he get his checked and he was just over 50 on his test and went through it twice himself. Now im not going to blow smoke up anyones buts here. Im a sloppy caster and i can be found casting with a cigerette hanging out of my mouth. I dont wear a resperator or even gloves. I do wash my hands right after casting but before the first time i was tested rarely did that. I have a third friend that doesnt do much casting but does alot of comp shooting that had to have blood trasfusions to take care of his problem. Even in my case i would have to guess that at least half of my exposure was from shooting and half from casting. I dont know that some people are more inclined to get it then others but dont ever think you can get sloppy like me or shoot indoors without good ventilation and never get lead poisoning from our hobby. It is not a myth or urban ledgon. IT CAN HAPPEN TO YOU. If it happened to me. One thing i will add to this is like i said i had no symtoms and either did either of my buddys so i would have to say that if anything the levels the docs start to panic have been greatly exagerated to cause panic.

I've been watching my lead levels for more than 20 years. I started work at 13 in an autobody shop sanding cars, many of which had lead body filler. We also used a red lead scratch filler which we then wetsanded smooth. I grew up in a 100 year old house with a terne, (lead coated steel), roof which I sanded down and repainted with "red lead" paint several times in my youth. I also sanded down and repainted most of the woodwork in that house. My lead levels tested in the teens to low 20's from my teens through my early 40's. I started casting at 40, I'm currently 52. At the age of 44 or so I shot one year of indoor bullseye league. This was in northern maine and the piss poor ventilation system in the range was often shut down while we were shooting to keep the temperature in the range above freezing. My next blood lead level test was in the low 40's and that got my attention, and the attention of the state. I quit shooting indoors, put an exhaust hood over my casting table and generally paid attention to lead. Within 5 years my level was back down under 10. I'm due for a test again as I've been shooting indoors here in SC, (no other local option). This time in a "five star" rated range with the latest in ventilation technology where they do not allow necked lead boolits. We'll see. The moral of this tale is that shooting outdoors and casting your own lead bullets really shouldn't have much to do with your lead levels. Elemental lead is not easily absorbed unless you eat it or breath in particulate dust, or if it is lodged in your intestinal tract or spinal fluid. It's the oxides and salts of lead and related compounds which are more readily absorbed, and with the exception of lead styphanate in priming compound, these substances are far more likely to be found as part of the non-firearms environment. Paint, pottery glazes and pot metal can all contain lead compounds. And while lead in these things are supposedly "regulated" the real effect of that regulation is similar to the real effect of gun control regulations. The more we drive manufacturing and materials sourcing off shore, the more lead we will see in these types of products again.
BD

Went in for a general checkup late last fall. General blood work came back with poor results. Doc retested and I though I might as well have a lead level done also. Lead level came in at 10 and the rest of the bloodwork was worse than the first time (white blood count was waaaaaaaay down). Yipes. Then came the trips to the oncologist who ran dozens of test which then came back normal. After some discussion (I had batched some ingots a few weeks before the initial test) it was determined that the lead level though not considered high was probably the cause of the other bloodwork being off. Suggested I cast no more. I thought I was pretty carefull but am now taking a few more precausions and will probably get tested every year. Just thought I'd point out that just cause it isn't high doesn't mean it cant cause other problems.

:castmine:

Just got off the phone with my Doc. he said level was a 9
and 0 thu 10 was normal.
This is the first year I had it tested and have been casting for less than 2 yrs.
I have my baseline for next year.

I cast in the 10 x 16 shop out back. Mostly in the winter time, because it is just too dern hot to fool with molten lead in the summer time. Of course, in the cold weather, the ventilation in the sparsely heated shop is nil. I kinda worried about lead levels so I got the doc to check. The results came back "too small to detect" and I quit worrying about it.
I, too, played with mercury as a lad. Nowadays the anti-pollution whackos would go berserk. But then I also used to do mildly adventurous stuff with home made black powder, not to mention firecrackers. I had a nice chunk of white phosphorus around the place for many years - finally disposed of it.

Tested this winter but came back normal. Doctor never gave a quantity, just said everything is normal.

I cast outside and shoot at an outdoor range.
I've been casting for thirty four years and have never been tested, but have no symptoms.
I'm sixty three years old now. If I can remain symptom free for another thirty four years I'll be happy, and I promise I'll stop casting then.

birdman i about agree with you there. Like i said ive been treated twice and im sure there up there again but i show no symtoms and im 50 years old and how be dammed if im going to quit shooting or casting. the doctor suggested it and I laughed at him. Id about as soon be a vegetarian!!! I have modified my approach to casting a little (very little) i wash my hands after casting now and try to smelt with at least the door open on the pole barn. But figure if God wants to take me because i love shooting then id rather shoot for another 10 years then live another 20 not shooting.

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Originally Posted by nvbirdman

I cast outside and shoot at an outdoor range.
I've been casting for thirty four years and have never been tested, but have no symptoms.
I'm sixty three years old now. If I can remain symptom free for another thirty four years I'll be happy, and I promise I'll stop casting then.

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Not exactly sure of the scale the docs used at the base clinic, but they said I was at 11. 20 was the level when birth defects were present. I got tested again about 3 months later and I was 5. I also had my kids tested and they were 5 as well. I think there is alot of hype surrounding this, but be careful. I wash after cleaning guns or casting. And I 've gotten more aware of eating/drinking while casting. I knew from the start that it is a no-no, but it sure gets hot in Ga! BTW hows it going Lloyd? I am using the .308 dies like crazy! Let me know if you need anything else.

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Originally Posted by EMC45

And I 've gotten more aware of eating/drinking while casting. I knew from the start that it is a no-no, but it sure gets hot in Ga!

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It gets hot anywhere you're casting.
Thay why they invented the soda straw.
I have one of those large Aladdin insulated mugs you get at 7-11 that I use when working. It sits on a small side shelf out of the way but within easy reach.
It has a lid to keep the insides in and the outside out. It has a handle to make it easy to grab when wearing surgical gloves. And it has a straw to drink from.
I grab a couple extra of the really long ones every time I get a drink from 7-11.
And I change to a new one at least once a day.
Being insulated the outside of the mug never "sweats" no matter now high the humidity gets. After all you don't want your drink piddling on your loading bench/casting table. OR on your hands.

Now eating is a completely different thing.
I have a simple rule... I don't handle ammo in the dining room and I don't handle food in the reloading room. (it works for me... YMMV)
But I think drinking is okay if you practice a little caution.

Both my father and my grandfather were house painters and both used a LOT of lead based paint back in the days when you had to buy 25 lb. buckets of white lead paste and mix your own paint. One day while working with my dad on the only house I ever used the old "white lead and oil" type of paint on I asked him about it being dangrous because when painting overhead often paint drips down on the painter and somethime you get to taste the paint. He said he didn't think it was too risky or there would of been a lot of dead painters. I have also wire brushed whole houses that had asbestos siding without a resperator, we just didn't know back then. Folks lived normal lifespans back then.

I read of about 12 cases of lead poisoning every month in my National
Rifleman Magazine. Incidentally, the weakness, tummy aches, headaches, and pants wetting struck home invaders quite suddenly!