44-40 first endeavor, head me off at the pass...

Savvy Jack, after inspection my initial batch of fired cases I did find evidence of where the Lee collet die pinched little divets around the case mouth. I slightly increased the roll applied to the case mouth by the seating die ( I know, I know; but...) to allow the collet fingers to skip over the case mouth. I did mangle a few cases in getting that seating die set to roll, almost no adjustment between no roll and too much. Good heads-up, but I had already loaded those.

Texas by God; I am using Lee's current 3 die set in 44-40, now comes in red flat case, but same die set. I have added an "M" die and the collet die all used in my 5 stage press.

prs

RCBS cowboy mold is also a good blackpowder mold for 44/40 (and 38/40) - nice profile, big enough lube groove to shoot without cleaning, and keeps to the original 200grain weight.

Savvy Jack; your heads-up about the collet die dog-earing the case mouths with .430" bullets has been varified by me; if it is set to crimp at all, it pinches between the collet seams. I am roll crimping in final stage now and just seating at seating stage as we have long known to be the way. Again, thanks to all of you good shooters!

prs

Indian Joe is correct on the RCBS bullet. However, my experience with both my 1905 Colt Frontier Six Shooter and 1920 Colt New Service is that they impact low relative to the sights when firing the lighter 200-grain bullets. To avoid having to cut down the original sights on those guns I use the Accurate 43-229H to identify my mild, 6 grain Bullseye loads for the SAA, and 43-230G for somewhat heavier 7 grain Bullseye loads used in the heat-treated Colt 1920 New Service as well as the S&W Texas Wagon Train, Ruger Vaquero, Spanish El Tigre and Marlin levers.

Attachment 265711Attachment 265712

Outpost, folks are doing it.........I spy a 43-200Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUJWk4baeec

They sure are pretty! 8-)

My vicarious pressure testing of 44-40 loads is posted; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...essure-Testing

[smilie=w:

Thanks again, Larry. Enjoyed your article.

prs

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Savvy Jack

Oh I forgot to add, there is another modification of the 43-215C designed specifically for the LFCD. However, one must still not forget the bullet diameter issues.

43-219M - http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...=43-219M-D.png
Attachment 264104

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That is my design.
It was originally designed to work well with the Lee FCD but i have since discovered that it works equally well with the Taper crimp from the Hornady Cowboy Series dies and with the Redding Profile crimp die.

It is sized at .430 for modern .44-40 rifles like those made for Winchester by Miroku which are using .44 Mag barrels (either as a cost saving measure or because most available components are .429 - .430).

The lube groove as pictured and spec'd in the catalog is sized for smokeless loads but you can ask Tom to cut it deeper (to same as the 43-215C) for the holy black when ordering.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CamoWhamo

That is my design.Winchester by Miroku which are using .44 Mag barrels

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CamoWhamo, I apologize for the off topic a tad but what is the typical twist rate for 44 Mag rifle barrels and what is the twist rate for your 44-40 barrel? If I recall correctly all of my 44-40 barrels are 1:36" while my 44-40 MGM 20" test barrel is 1:20".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Savvy Jack

CamoWhamo, I apologize for the off topic a tad but what is the typical twist rate for 44 Mag rifle barrels and what is the twist rate for your 44-40 barrel? If I recall correctly all of my 44-40 barrels are 1:36" while my 44-40 MGM 20" test barrel is 1:20".

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Bryan
I have a rebarrel from Sprinter arms in South Australia - nearest I can measure the rifling is 427x421 and twist appears to be 1:22 (it did about 270 degrees for 16 inches of rifling) also have an early Uberti thats the classic 1:36 both shoot ok but the Uberti dont like heavier boolits and a bit of distance (think oblong holes at 200yards and 2foot group).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by indian joe

Bryan
I have a rebarrel from Sprinter arms in South Australia - nearest I can measure the rifling is 427x421 and twist appears to be 1:22 (it did about 270 degrees for 16 inches of rifling) also have an early Uberti thats the classic 1:36 both shoot ok but the Uberti dont like heavier boolits and a bit of distance (think oblong holes at 200yards and 2foot group).

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That was what I was wondering. I even use the the phrase "44 magnum barrels" but in reality, I always thought the 44 mag barrels were 1:20 while the 44-40's were 1:36". I guess in reality, which I don't really know, if the 44 Magnum rifle barrels are not offered in 1:36", I suppose they (44-40) are not really 44 Mag barrels even though they are typically .429?

It was always my understanding the 44 Mag rifle barrels were 1:20 in order to get those heavier (heavier than 240gr) bullets down range.

Thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Savvy Jack

CamoWhamo, I apologize for the off topic a tad but what is the typical twist rate for 44 Mag rifle barrels and what is the twist rate for your 44-40 barrel? If I recall correctly all of my 44-40 barrels are 1:36" while my 44-40 MGM 20" test barrel is 1:20".

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That's a good question and one I hadn't actually considered. I always kind of assumed that they were using the .429-430 barrels to either save on tooling costs or because .429 projectiles are readily available and .427 is virtually unobtainable for those who don't cast.

Out of curiousity i tried to measure the twist on my Miroku 1873 with 24" octagonal barrel using the bronze brush on a cleaning rod.
Either the bronze brush was slipping in the bore or the twist is slower than 1:24" because it didn't make a complete turn when pulled down the entire length of the barrel.
I didn't want to push a tight patch down the bore today to get a better result but next time i'm giving it a thorough cleaning i will try to measure again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CamoWhamo

That's a good question and one I hadn't actually considered. I always kind of assumed that they were using the .429-430 barrels to either save on tooling costs or because .429 projectiles are readily available and .427 is virtually unobtainable for those who don't cast.

Out of curiousity i tried to measure the twist on my Miroku 1873 with 24" octagonal barrel using the bronze brush on a cleaning rod.
Either the bronze brush was slipping in the bore or the twist is slower than 1:24" because it didn't make a complete turn when pulled down the entire length of the barrel.
I didn't want to push a tight patch down the bore today to get a better result but next time i'm giving it a thorough cleaning i will try to measure again.

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Maybe Outpost75 or one of the other 44 Mag, 44 Special rifle guys can clear this up for us.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Savvy Jack

Maybe Outpost75 or one of the other 44 Mag, 44 Special rifle guys can clear this up for us.

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I can't speak for the Japchesters or Italian guns, but both my Marlin 1894S carbines in .44 Magnum and .44-40 have slow twist barrels of .431" groove diameter, which shoot poorly with factory jacketed .44-40 softpoints having .425" bullet diameter. My Interarms Rossi .44-40 was likewise, but .433" and keyholed with factory loads, which is why I got it so cheap! All shoot well with 6 grains of Bullseye and Accurate 43-230G cast 1 to 40 tin-lead sized .431".

My 1920s Spanish El Tigre is slow twist with groove diameter .430" at breech, diminishing to .425" at muzzle and is the only .44-40 I own which will stay in a Campbell's soup can at 100 yards, versus a bucket for the others firing factory softpoints.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Outpost75

I can't speak for the Japchesters or Italian guns, but both my Marlin 1894S carbines in .44 Magnum and .44-40 have slow twist barrels of .431" groove diameter, which shoot poorly with factory jacketed .44-40 softpoints having .425" bullet diameter. My Interarms Rossi .44-40 was likewise, but .433" and keyholed with factory loads, which is why I got it so cheap! All shoot well with 6 grains of Bullseye and Accurate 43-230G cast 1 to 40 tin-lead sized .431".

My 1920s Spanish El Tigre is slow twist with groove diameter .430" at breech, diminishing to .425" at muzzle and is the only .44-40 I own which will stay in a Campbell's soup can at 100 yards, versus a bucket for the others firing factory softpoints.

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Thanks for chiming in Outpost75!

Oh, look what I now see on the Uberti USA website
https://www.uberti-usa.com/uberti-po...of-twist-chart

The 44 Magnum is not shown but I know my 73' Uberti is 1:36"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Savvy Jack

That was what I was wondering. I even use the the phrase "44 magnum barrels" but in reality, I always thought the 44 mag barrels were 1:20 while the 44-40's were 1:36". I guess in reality, which I don't really know, if the 44 Magnum rifle barrels are not offered in 1:36", I suppose they (44-40) are not really 44 Mag barrels even though they are typically .429?

It was always my understanding the 44 Mag rifle barrels were 1:20 in order to get those heavier (heavier than 240gr) bullets down range.

Thoughts?

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'slugged my uberti this morning -.428 (only using digital calipers and about a thou either way is how that works - the slug from the sprinter barrel also told me .428 this morning - too tight to call em 44mag barrels anyway)
The boolit that caused me grief in the Uberti is only 225 grain, a big flat meplat slug from Cast Bullet Engineering here in Aus, my measure is .430 as cast and its only .640 length - you would think not a problem ? load was proly 35 grains of the old goex 5FA and it shot fine at closer ranges - a load I had been using for ages - a couple more grains of powder proly woulda kept it going ok - or at least pushed the wobble out another 100 yards.
Projectile stability is a whole nuther story - you can be running right on the edge and never know - it gets ten degrees colder and all of a sudden what was a tack hole load wont hit your hat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Savvy Jack

Oh, look what I now see on the Uberti USA website
https://www.uberti-usa.com/uberti-po...of-twist-chart

The 44 Magnum is not shown but I know my 73' Uberti is 1:36"

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yep! mine is a 66, early manufacture 1:36, and .428 bore