Duplicating Original 7.62x54r Loads with Lead?

BTW; Russian manuals say nothing about fixing bayonets when the MN M91 or the M91.30 "is brought to normal zero". Pictures in the manuals also do not show bayonets fixed in pictures showing the various shooting positions.

What the manuals do say with regards the M91/30 in particular is the rifle is zeroed at 100 meters with the rear sight set on 300m. For the M91/30 to be considered "zeroed" with the M1908 light ammunition ("L" Ball ammunition) Shooting 4 shot groups the center of the group should be (I'll roughly convert from CM to inches) 4.75" to 8.6" high above the point of aim and deviate not more than 2" left or right. Maximum group size for the 4 shot groups is 6 moa.

The manuals indicate this zeroing procedure is conducted at unit level with unit armorers assisting by replacing front sight posts and drifting the front sight for windage if needed. The manuals say nothing about the rifles being zeroed at the arsenals. Thus with all the arsenal reconditioned MNs imported many, if not most, may not have been zeroed by actually shooting at all.

Larry Gibson

Why does Josh Smith live in Wabatucky and I live across the county line south of LaFontain ( pronounced La-Fountain ) yet I have heard of no such critter by that name?

I'm not famous or anything... Why would you have heard of me?

I guess I'm confused.

Regards,

Josh

I should add:

Since you're that close, I'd be happy to go to the Bass and Bucks range with you. I can bring a couple 1911 pistols, a Mosin, maybe a Gewehr 88/05, but I'd rather leave the muzzleloaders home. I need to make 45acp brass so I can reload 'em! :D

What toys do you have to bring? I need more time on the AR platform.

Regards,

Josh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Larry Gibson

BTW; Russian manuals say nothing about fixing bayonets when the MN M91 or the M91.30 "is brought to normal zero". Pictures in the manuals also do not show bayonets fixed in pictures showing the various shooting positions.

What the manuals do say with regards the M91/30 in particular is the rifle is zeroed at 100 meters with the rear sight set on 300m. For the M91/30 to be considered "zeroed" with the M1908 light ammunition ("L" Ball ammunition) Shooting 4 shot groups the center of the group should be (I'll roughly convert from CM to inches) 4.75" to 8.6" high above the point of aim and deviate not more than 2" left or right. Maximum group size for the 4 shot groups is 6 moa.

The manuals indicate this zeroing procedure is conducted at unit level with unit armorers assisting by replacing front sight posts and drifting the front sight for windage if needed. The manuals say nothing about the rifles being zeroed at the arsenals. Thus with all the arsenal reconditioned MNs imported many, if not most, may not have been zeroed by actually shooting at all.

Larry Gibson

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Larry,

I've often wondered the same thing about whether the refurbs were ever truly sighted in. The sights with cast base and sheet metal good are WWII. We see so many of these on pre-war Mosins that I suspect they were all thrown in the same Mixmaster bins as everything else.

If you reference Russian military procedure manuals of the time, you'll notice reference to bayonets being always affixed. It's therefore logical that the rifles would be sighted in with the bayonets on.

Supporting this theory are tests done be myself and others, and supported by taller sight posts on M38 carbines and PU sniper models, neither of which were issued with bayonets.

Regards,

Josh

(I'm really enjoying this conversation. Thank you!)

Josh

"If you reference Russian military procedure manuals of the time, you'll notice reference to bayonets being always affixed. It's therefore logical that the rifles would be sighted in with the bayonets on."

That may seem logical to us but it is really an assumption. I have viewed and had translated manuals of the time and found no such reference to rifles being "brought to zero" (that's how the translation of what we call zeroing the rifle is from Russian) with bayonets attached. Actually an early (1930s) Soviet soldiers manual gave instructions on when to fix bayonets and when not to. It also demonstrated how to slide the bayonet on past the front site base, twist locking in place, sliding the locking collar over the front site, turning the collar to line up with the bayonet and then tightening the screw down with the combination tool. The bayonet for the M91 was not a easy take on take off bayonet.

Attachment 193726

As I stated earlier, I have searched high and low for many years having several manuals translated by Army MI Russian interpreters and have yet to find any reference in Russian manuals about M91s being zeroed with bayonets on (internet web sites, on the other hand, are redundant with the assumption though). To the contrary, in the very few Russian manuals that reference zeroing M91s or M91/30s it was always demonstrated (illustrated) without bayonets on the M91 rifles. You might also note the Finnish M91 are very seldom seen with bayonets on them and there is no mention of zeroing the M91s with bayonets fixed in Finnish manuals either that I could find.

I also worked for a company that used also used very experienced Russian Army veterans (Spetsnatz) who were trained in the use of all Soviet weapons. When I queried them at a range while shooting M91s and M91/30 they said they'd never heard of such a thing. Their actual response translated came out as "b*lls**t" (bovine manure if the program deletes that).

However, I am always interested in learning and factual research. Can you provide the titles of the manuals, a translation of the zeroing procedure with bayonet fixed and perhaps a scanned picture of the illustrations? That would really be helpful. For the M91/30 you might read the zeroing procedure for the iron sights (it is the same on the standard M91/30) in this manual as it has already been translated from the Soviet original published for Russian soldiers, and probably other combloc soldiers,in 1954 by The Ministry Of Defense of the USSR.

Attachment 193727

Larry Gibson

Excellent thread for many reasons!

Josh, was your original stated goal to duplicate the ballistics of the old Round nose cartridge, prior to the 1906 light ball spitzer loading? Just wondering.

It Ken, yes sir, that's correct. I've been thinking about knocking off the 91/30 rear sight and using the long, heavy round nose bullet on one of them. Arshini not struck, if I can find one.

Larry, I'm not ignoring you. I'd composed a response on my phone, then brushed the touch screen and lost it. I've been busy and have been trying to find time to reply using the computer. Maybe this weekend.

Regards,

Josh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by james6600

Why does Josh Smith live in Wabatucky and I live across the county line south of LaFontain ( pronounced La-Fountain ) yet I have heard of no such critter by that name?

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Hello,

Offer stands if you see this in time. I'm making some time for myself this weekend to either shoot or bass fish.

If you'd like to try some of my products, my favorite Mosin is equipped with my two-stage bearing trigger, my Classic Target sight, shims and pillars, and fitted ejector. I have plenty of light ball-style handloads.

My only stipulation is that you help police up brass from the 45s.

Regards,

Josh

Absolutely no problem Josh, didn't figure you were ignoring me. I've been trying to track down confirmation via any official Tsarist, Soviet, other combloc or Finnish sources that the M91s were brought to zero with the bayonet fixed for probably 25+ years. I have not been able to find any official source. Thus if you have found one I certainly would like to know of it. It's been a quest of mine to track it down if it exists for quite a long time........so far it's been like hunting for bigfoot.....:D

Larry Gibson

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Josh Smith

It Ken, yes sir, that's correct. I've been thinking about knocking off the 91/30 rear sight and using the long, heavy round nose bullet on one of them. Arshini not struck, if I can find one.

Larry, I'm not ignoring you. I'd composed a response on my phone, then brushed the touch screen and lost it. I've been busy and have been trying to find time to reply using the computer. Maybe this weekend.

Regards,

Josh

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Very Well!

there is little for me to add after the excellent responses above other than to say that I'll be following this thread closely.

Sorry for the late reply I've been doing the spring cleaning thing. I've only been to Bass-n-Bucks once, years ago looking for recurves, I need to check it out again. I have a few toys, if there's something you're interested in let me know and if you are asking to shoot an AR I can do that too. I would like to see that 88. I sold my 09 Argentine many years ago along with my 7.7 Arisaka bring back MUM still in tack.

I've recently reviewed probably the last published (1961) Russian manual on the M19/30, M1938 and the M1944 MNs. While it doesn't specifically state the bayonet is mounted on the M91/30 or the M1938 it infers they are always mounted except when "traveling". Thus I pretty much agree the zeroing is probably done with the bayonet mounted. I do not have a M91/30 bayonet to test but did a retest with 2 different M1908 rounds (the "L" ammunition) with my M91 w/o bayonet and with bayonet fixed.

The manual does mention when bringing the rifle to normal zero the bayonet is locked in the combat position on the M1944. It also says there will be lateral shift if the bayonet has a round screw retention hole vs an oval one.

The manual proscribes that M1908 ammunition be used to bring the rifle to a normal zero. Two different lots of M1908 ("L") ammunition were used n testing the POI shift on my M91 with and w/o bayonet: S&B Check "silver tip" and Albanian. The rifle was made in 1928. Left rear sight is in "Arshins" which are marked out. The right side is marked in "meters". Sight was set at "300" as per the manual.

Attachment 194844Attachment 194845Attachment 194846

Both lots of 7.63x54R "L" delivered acceptable accuracy based on the manual criteria for a maximum 5.9" group for 4 shots. The wide flyer at 10 o'clock with the S&B was called. There were 3 split necks when the Albanian cartridges were fired. All 3 resulted in the flyers left an low on that test. There was a shift of 7" low and 7" left with both lots of M1908 ammunition. Both lots of ammunition would not have met the zero criteria as to POI with or w/o the bayonet with the rear sight set on "300" as per the manual.

Attachment 194847Attachment 194848Attachment 194849

Had the rifle been zeroed with the bayonet mounted the front sight would have hung out to the left off the base. May be some bedding issues which I will check. If so and they can be corrected I will retest.

As per the manual regarding the point of aim; ""The aimpoint, as a rule, is in the middle lower edge of the target".

The M91/30, M1938 and M1944 rifles is most often used with 400 meter "battle sight range" or a 300 meter "battle sight range" when "engaged in intense moments of combat, when there is not time to change the rear sight setting".

Larry Gibson

The zero's on my M91/30 PU sniper are such.

Attachment 194852

To properly zero the PU scope the reticle is center in the field of view with the top of the horizontal stadia centered and the tip of the aiming post centered in the field of view. The range disk is then adjusted so it is on "4" (400m) with the reticle so centered. The range is then set at "1" (100m) and the external mount adjustments are used to bring the rifle to a 100m zero. As you see I adjusted mine so the final zero group (yes it does shoot that good) is just above the tip of the aiming post. The windage scale is then set at "0".

Zeroing correctly will provide a centered reticle (I'd bet 99+% of the M91/30 PU sniper reticles aren't centered when zeroed), especially when set on "battle sight range" of 300m or 400m. At 100m the reticle is just a bit higher in the field of view and even at the max range of 1300m the reticle is lower in the field of view but still usable. Zeroing as such actually positions the reticle in the field of view giving the best performance for normal shooting out to 1000m.

Attachment 194853

I'm using a "heavy ball" load "D" load with the 174 gr Sierra MK. At 100 yards with the rear sight set on "1" that load hits about 4" high. Was a time before my eyes went south I could put that load into 1.5" instead of the 2.2" (center group in X and 10 ring) we see here. A very usable zero with the iron sights actually. I've no bayonet for the M91/30 PU sniper and according to the manual they were not used with the bayonet anyway.

Attachment 194851

Larry Gibson

Excellent sir. Thank you.

Again, been really busy and not checking in as I should.

Would you like me to send you a 91/30 bayonet?

Regards,

Josh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by james6600

Sorry for the late reply I've been doing the spring cleaning thing. I've only been to Bass-n-Bucks once, years ago looking for recurves, I need to check it out again. I have a few toys, if there's something you're interested in let me know and if you are asking to shoot an AR I can do that too. I would like to see that 88. I sold my 09 Argentine many years ago along with my 7.7 Arisaka bring back MUM still in tack.

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Sure, sounds good. I need to hit the indoor archery range there, too. I bought a bow a few years ago, one that I always wanted as a kid but could never afford -- an Oregon! Far from state of the art today, it's still a good bow. I usually shoot it outdoors but need to confirm zeroes again.

Also thinking about a recurve for small game.

I'll dig up some ammo for the 88. I've not shot it in a year I bet. I think I've got most of it in Mauser ammo pouches on stripper clips. It needs shot.

Regards,

Josh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Josh Smith

Excellent sir. Thank you.

Again, been really busy and not checking in as I should.

Would you like me to send you a 91/30 bayonet?

Regards,

Josh

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Might be interesting to see what the change to the poi is on the M91/30 sniper. If you want to ship one to me I'll test and send back? If so PM me for address.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

PM sent!

Regards,

Josh