45 Super recipe a good idea? Pointless? Or Dangerous?

I have a custom 1911 that is set up to shoot 45 Super, really just very hot 45 acp. I have been doing this forever using 185 SWC-BB-HP-NLG bullets that I coat with Hi-Tek. I have used a specific recipe just about forever with very good results. My 1911 longslide is set up from top to bottom to deal deal with it.

Today I was reading and found that a version of the 45 Super was being rolled with a 45 acp case with a small primer pocket using small rifle primers.

I never thought about doing this. I guess that would give more brass around the that area of the case and the rifle primer would give more pop than a small pistol primer.

I just happened to have most of a 5 gallon bucket full of 45 acp small primer brass that my wife was given for me. It has been sitting untouched because of fear of getting it mixed up and causing a catastrophic accident in my Dillon 650.

I seated some small rifle primers in a few. I thought they would be too high. They weren't. They were normal depth and looked/felt fine. I then thought they would be too hard to fire reliably. Nope. The titanium firing pin popped each one, no problem.

Bottom line. Do you think this whole idea of using small rifle primered 45 acp case is:

A) A good idea.
B) Pointless, it doesn't matter one way or the other.
C) Dangerous you moron!

There's no doubt that the pop a small rifle primer puts out is much more than a small pistol primer and maybe more than magnum large pistol primers.

It's an interesting idea...

I haven't tried small rifle primers in 45 acp brass but I do use small pistol primers. I haven't had any problems but I am not using it in rifles. I use small primer 45acp brass because I don't have to change the primer system on the Dillon 550. I accumulate as much small primer 45acp brass as I can. I don't have a 5 gallon bucket yet.

I would start low and work up slowly if you are wanting to make up 45 Super loads in (1) 45 auto cases and (2) small rifle primers.

Super cases are stronger than auto cases, even those with small primer pockets. SR primers generally will create more pressure than SP primers. The combo of the weaker brass and stronger primers may cause pressure problems you don't want to experience.

Can't remember where I read it, but someone used cut down .308W brass for the .45 Super. Don't recall the details, but sounds realistic that it could be done.

Save that bridge to cross when you can't find large pistol primers-anywhere. Or small pistol for that matter. Will your .45 Super function with regular ACP hardball?

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Originally Posted by Texas by God

Save that bridge to cross when you can't find large pistol primers-anywhere. Or small pistol for that matter. Will your .45 Super function with regular ACP hardball?

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I just tried some with normal loads in a Colt Gold Cup and all seems well. I'll start ramping things up and blow them down range of my LabRadar and see how things go.

In all reality, I doubt I'll see any difference beyond the small amount it might say on paper...but it's interesting to try.

You will know when your 45 super load is too hot for the 45acp brass. It will fail in the unsupported part of the brass and send hot gases into your magazine well. The extra thickness at the case head of the SP brass is kinda meaningless with a 28k round. I would sell the SP 45acp brass and buy the correct brass from Starline.

BB

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Originally Posted by bikerbeans

You will know when your 45 super load is too hot for the 45acp brass. It will fail in the unsupported part of the brass and send hot gases into your magazine well. The extra thickness at the case head of the SP brass is kinda meaningless with a 28k round. I would sell the SP 45acp brass and buy the correct brass from Starline.

BB

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I have all the different types of 45 brass, 45 acp, 45 super, 45 Rowland and 45 small primer. I've cut them apart and with the exception of the 45 small primer, they're all pretty much the same inside. Now that does't mean that Starline doesn't use a tougher brass recipe but they all look pretty much physically the same to me. I didn't believe it either till I saw an article on Real Guns that caused me to saw them apart and look.

I use a fully ramped Kart barrel with a decent throat in it and have yet to see any sign of a belly. I used to tell pressure by how the primer looked but I'm now concerned small rifle primers won't reflect that the way small pistol primers did.

I don't want to give the impression I'm looking for nuclear loads, i'm not. I'm just wondering if the small primer route would perhaps give me a little bit greater reserve strength rather than more performance...and it's just something else to work with.

The LabRadar results should tell the best story. Anything else is just speculation.

I've been meaning to test my 10.7 grain Blue Dot load with Winchester LP's vs Federal Magnum LP's. I'm hoping for a lower SD but I'm not sure the primer is cause for the large extreme spread. These are for a Hi Point carbine and get up into the 1200 FPS range.

If I remember right , years ago there was a round called the .45 Detonics that was a longer case . That might be the super you're longing for .

Jack

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Originally Posted by Jack Stanley

If I remember right , years ago there was a round called the .45 Detonics that was a longer case . That might be the super you're longing for .

Jack

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That does ring a bell. Now that you mention it, I do recall the 45 Detonics and it did have an ever so slightly longer case to keep it from chambering from in a standard 45 acp.

It's a good thing this is a hobby. I'd hate for anything definitive need to have to come from this.

I think that you'll have no problems loading "45 +p" loads using small rifle primers, I loaded a fair few 38 supers set up in similar fashion to launch 158 grain RN"S to make major without issue. It sounds as though you have a properly set up pistol, ample experience reloading, and sufficient caution to "boldly go where no man has gone before." Provided you don't intend to challenge the "Ruger only" loads for mastery, you ought to be able safely find a 185-200 grain load that scoots along at 1250 FPS.

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Originally Posted by rintinglen

I think that you'll have no problems loading "45 +p" loads using small rifle primers, I loaded a fair few 38 supers set up in similar fashion to launch 158 grain RN"S to make major without issue. It sounds as though you have a properly set up pistol, ample experience reloading, and sufficient caution to "boldly go where no man has gone before." Provided you don't intend to challenge the "Ruger only" loads for mastery, you ought to be able safely find a 185-200 grain load that scoots along at 1250 FPS.

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Oh man I'm way past 1250 fps on my 45 super standard load, I'm comfortably bouncing around 1400 fps with my 180-185 gr cast bullets. I'm not looking to exceed that. I'd just like to see if there is an advantage to using small pistol primer cases with small rifle primers. Faster than that and and accuracy goes to heck due to recoil and various other issues.

Keep working at it , after all look what the ammo makers did for the .44 special lovers that wanted "more" . A .45 Nutz has a ring to it don't you think ?? :-)

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Originally Posted by Jack Stanley

Keep working at it , after all look what the ammo makers did for the .44 special lovers that wanted "more" . A .45 Nutz has a ring to it don't you think ?? :-)

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Oh man...the 45 Nutz. My wife would believe, even if no one else did.

My guess is that you will find reduced accuracy with the small rifle primers in the 45 ACP. What a lot of people found in the 22hornet was that the rifle primers (vs. sm pistol primers) had enough oomph to push the bullet out of the case before the powder was ignited resulting in a "double" thrust to the bullet instead of one smooth one. This lead to bullets stripping or jumping lands in the barrel.

The only reason I can see for using a heavier primer in any particular load (eg. small pistol magnum in place of regular small pistol primers, or rifle primers in place of pistol ) is to achieve better ignition. Certainly using rifle primers will up pressure and thus velocity; something you may not need with loads has hot as you are using. As stated before: you may blow out the unsupported section of the case, venting gas into the magazine well. I certainly would not use such cases more than once....................... Brodie

I seem to remember reading something from Starline saying their +P, 45 super and 460 Rowland brass has the same thickness but a different heat treatment making them stronger. I would not use small primer 45 (non +P) brass with 45 super loads in a 1911 that did not have a fully supported chamber.

Ever been to realguns.com?

Joe, over there, has put out a great volume of very interesting rifle and handgun information over the years. I read his .45 Super articles and found it very sound and viable; IF you have a Very High-Quality 1911. Back in 2005 or so, Joe was only endorsing the Super conversion for Kimber, Colt, and Springfield Armory pistols. Basically the conversion was to upgrade slide spring to 28 or 30# (Wolff spring kit) and upgrade the firing pin spring also.

Got a Hi-Q pistol? no worries. Use the .45 Super headstamped from Starline. He has loads listed, more for the modern, less smoke producing powders, with good bullet variety. I fired a few rounds of 230gr supers in a Colt Govt w/no problems. Probably more for 180 or 200gr bullets for zippier velocities, but certainly close enough to the Rowland to not need one.

Read the articles, decide for yourself. Might cost you $20 to swap springs and maybe put in a hi-q match grade firing pin.

The much greater structural strengths of the Super brass from Starline would be worth considering for any .45acp loads you deem to be heavy...

FWIW, I have seen several sources assert that the brisance/formulation of CCI Small pistol magnum and Small rifle primers is identical. Of couse small primers are all identical in size so fit isn't an issue. As for using small primered 45 brass in lieu of 45 super.............They seem to be the pretty much the same in dimension both externally and internally. Whether there is a difference in hardness I cannot say. Seems to me that mild .45super loads start at.45 +p levels so there isn't anything to worry about unless you try to max out at top Super levels.....which still are not very high pressure but are well beyond the typical .45 auto.