SLOW Twists and FAST Casts Using CUSTOM Barrels...Results, Please?

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Originally Posted by runfiverun

The problem is the bickering.
Discussing high velocity is actually encouraged it's how the details are discussed that brings up the removal of the thread.
Anybody trying to read those threads would give up from the drivel long before they picked up any actual useful information.
I have tried and tried to get this subject out in the open.
It pains me to see the threads being closed, but I can only clean them up and re-open them so many times. (Especially on a work phone)
i dunno any other way to make this happen.

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The solution appears too easy to me, just use the same heavy-handed ations that were taken when Larry Gibson was banned from posting in this entire sub-forum... Actually, I don't think it's necessary to even go that far... How about taking just that one thread, as proposed originally, and give the oppressed testers a safe place to post their results and voice their OPINIONS without fear of "moderator intervention".
The only people you'd need to restrict from posting there, to keep the thread on track without the bickering (which we all desire), appears to be any of "The Three Amigos" and 45 2.1.

There is no reason that these results and opinions of all the aftermarket, slow-twist testers shouldn't be archived here, the same as the info being presented in your HV thread continues without interruption.
These members DESERVE the same latitude. It's only fair.

The key word is OPINIONS. If it is expressed as an opinion then nobody cares. Problem is that it is expressed as FACT.

I have no issues with slow twist HV shooting. Looks to me like it works quite well actually. I DO have an issue with the insinuation that it is the "best" or only solution.

Have a thread about shooting and nobody cares. Heck, they can discuss that all they want.

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Originally Posted by cainttype

The only people you'd need to restrict from posting there, to keep the thread on track without the bickering (which we all desire), appears to be any of "The Three Amigos" and 45 2.1.

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Hey Run, since you're one of "The Three Amigos", that means you're Not Welcome, and an affront to a Mod no less. I have the same attitude toward this subject as Brad just posted. If the sales pitch as best and only along with drumming up business was eliminated, there wouldn't be any problem with it.

It is an affront.
especially since I was pretty instrumental in designing the round the way it was set-up in the rifles.
I actually meant for the round to be used with a 12-14 twist barrel and at 2600 plus fps around 50-k psi.
Yep easy peasy shooting.

I already have have rifles going 2400 plus but needed something simple to continue testing boolit designs and different lubes with.

If you want to shoot cast at high velocity and make it easy to do so send TiM a rifle a barrel and a check.
if you want to shoot and learn then take the steps laid out in the other thread and learn your rifle alloys, ignition, something about powder relationships , etc then go the other route.
This route is where I got most of my enhanced casting/ shooting knowledge from.

Hey! I have a 12 twist and am shooting over 2600 and around 50K psi.

Woo hoo, I finally did something right!

I am taking the "learn what works" route as it will make me better at casting, loading, and shooting.

An OPINION, stated as FACT is still simply one persons OPINION! I hate to see threads closed or removed because some folk get into a disagreement! I, (as is everyone else) am quite capable of sorting out the "wheat from the chafe" after I have read whatever ANY poster has to say! Is there more than one way to arrive at a certain point? Most likely there is, and it is no one's but my decision which route or method (or maybe try all suggested) as to what works for me! This site is hugely popular and in my opinion that is because of it being mostly run on a "as long as it remains respectful, we can advance pretty well anything". I would hate to see this site turn into a place where we have a bunch of "lock happy" moderators shutting down threads for some very questionable "reasons"! This is not THR!

I have seen no claims about any method being the ONLY way. So that arguement is hollow, as far as I'm concerned.
Suggesting that there is a conflict of interest involved in the manner in which these problems have been handled, intentional or not, seems obvious to me. That's an OPINION, gentlemen...NOT a fact.
If the slow-twist testers are so off-base, why not allow them to post freely, thereby PROVING to the rest of us watching how wrong they are???
Why are they the only people being restricted by thread removals, and thread closures... While their antagonists don't suffer the same treatment???

I understand that moderating a forum like this can be more than a little bit frustrating, and regardless of what others are saying here, I appreciate Run's attempts to keep these threads alive. The simple fact is, I think he's overlooking some causes of the strife, and I believe his friendships MAY have something to do with it.
Any good judge can recognize the POTENTIAL of any conflict of interest, and will voluntarily recuse himself...just in case.

The only thing I'm asking is to provide ONE tiny thread, where these MEMBERS can be as wrong as they want to be... Let them PROVE their incompetence to the rest of us, unchallenged.
I believe the only valid arguements against that proposal are fear and egotism.

Thanks for your efforts, Run, but even you admitted nothing thus far seemed workable.

If the slow-twist testers are so off-base, why not allow them to post freely, thereby PROVING to the rest of us watching how wrong they are???

Evidently, you haven't been understanding what was said. I recommend you go back and see what was said instead of depending on memory. To refresh your view, it was said the slow twist was one way of doing HV, not the only way either as some of the slow twisters want people to believe.

Why are they the only people being restricted by thread removals, and thread closures... While their antagonists don't suffer the same treatment???

A former moderator treated several "of us supposedly bad" guys in the manner you now claim that is happening to your group. That guy is not a moderator any more, for unknown reasons. I suppose that he was doing something the PTB didn't like though as evidenced by the circumstances that we saw afterward. Your guys have threads on the CBA and NOE forums that really have went nowhere. People decide what they want to do, not anyone else.

Cainttype, I might point out that 45 2.1 was blocked from Special Projects last year. I'd also like to point out that Larry Gibson had enough pull to convince another moderator to post a locked sticky containing only the complete guide to RPM Threshold theory so that it would go un-contested, un-challenged, and un-discussed. How was any of THAT fair? The same opportunity was denied, repeatedly, to anyone else who wanted to describe a different way of doing things. How is that fair?

Yes, there are some serious bullies here, but you don't realize who they really are. They're the same crowd who insists on splitting the ranks and taking sides, pitting one against the other rather than working together, those who make it "us vs. them" in every post, and collect soldiers like for an army to troll the forum 24/7 to disrupt any conversation that doesn't agree with their ideas.

45 2.1 pretty much nailed it in his post above.

And like I mentioned at the outset, one can find plenty of good information on the NOE forum if they're looking for it, only those pursuing the slow-twist, hard bullet, long barrel, custom rifle options are welcome to discuss their ideas over there. Don't believe me on that? I dare you to even try telling that you get sub-moa at 2300 fps out of your deer rifle over there and see what happens. How is that fair?

Gear

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Originally Posted by btroj

I have no issues with slow twist HV shooting. Looks to me like it works quite well actually. I DO have an issue with the insinuation that it is the "best" or only solution.

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And therein lays some of the rub. I think we can distill ALL of the bickering down to the same tiresome drama that happens EVERY time. Let me illustrate:

Problem when started from the slow twist shooters:
1. Slow twist shooters post groups, explain how it's easily done, use linotype, Goodsteel rifles etc.
2. Fast twist shooters will then post "but you gotta be able to do that in a ten twist" otherwise you're not a real man.
3. Slow twist shooters say "show us the results from your shooting like we did"
4. Fast twist shooters say "we did that in the 1950s and got ridiculed for it"
Now we are at a stalemate, and bickering starts because nobody sees any reason to back down, and mods intervene.

Problem when started from the fast twist shooters: (ex. Milk jug thread)
1. Fast twist shooters post groups or other shooting, explain their methods, soft alloy, bump up bullet in the throat etc.
2. Slow twist shooters will post "we don't believe you, show us proof"
3. Fast twist shooters will, sometimes elaborately, explain the theory, which sounds fine but (IMO) is VERY difficult to achieve (45 2.1 has told the forum many times that it is a process that takes long time and much shooting to achieve, and he is 100% right).
4. Slow twist shooters say "oh you guys are just talk and we don't believe your methods work"
Now we are at a stalemate, and bickering starts because nobody sees any reason to back down, and mods intervene.

I thought cainttype had a good idea when he started the thread in Special Projects for the slow twist followers and other interested shooters. I recognize btroj's right to post wherever he wants to on this forum, but the name of the thread should maybe have tipped him off that this was a thread where his shooting would not be the primary focus (unless he considers his rifle to have a slow twist). So maybe some self-policing would be a good idea for some; there have been many posts in this forum where I scratched my head an thought "huh?", but then I realized that the poster had a right to his opinion, and that inserting mine wouldn't do a darn thing for civil discourse on the forum.

Sorry, Bob, apparently my post was redundant.

Gear

It isn't about them proving themselves wrong. They won't. What I DO take issue with is the manner in which tim presented the rpm discussion. Go back and look at and actually READ and COMPREHEND what I challenged him on. He talked about going over a certain rpm and suddenly groups go wonky and you can't keep em on paper. Totally false in many cases.

What I did was present a counter arguement to the entire rpm "thingy". I used logical, targeted points to counter what was presented. I nefer stated or insinuated that using a slow twist barrel is wrong or won't work. What I DID do was counter the idea that using a faster twist barrel is a hindrance to HV accuracy.

I would love a discussion about HV shooting. I don't give two hoots about what twist rate you use. What I want to do is keep the discussion about the shooting, not the twist rate. My barrel is what it is. I want to see what my barrel can do, not talk about what it could do if it was different.

HV shooting is not, and never has been the issue. The sticking point is the rpm "thingy".

Bjorn, that thread took a wrong turn when it stopped being about shooting and became about theory.
Some fail to see that shooting is about making holes in a target, not promoting a theory.

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Originally Posted by Bjornb

And therein lays some of the rub. I think we can distill ALL of the bickering down to the same tiresome drama that happens EVERY time. Let me illustrate:

Problem when started from the slow twist shooters:
1. Slow twist shooters post groups, explain how it's easily done, use linotype, Goodsteel rifles etc.
2. Fast twist shooters will then post "but you gotta be able to do that in a ten twist" otherwise you're not a real man.
3. Slow twist shooters say "show us the results from your shooting like we did"
4. Fast twist shooters say "we did that in the 1950s and got ridiculed for it"
Now we are at a stalemate, and bickering starts because nobody sees any reason to back down, and mods intervene.

Problem when started from the fast twist shooters: (ex. Milk jug thread)
1. Fast twist shooters post groups or other shooting, explain their methods, soft alloy, bump up bullet in the throat etc.
2. Slow twist shooters will post "we don't believe you, show us proof"
3. Fast twist shooters will, sometimes elaborately, explain the theory, which sounds fine but (IMO) is VERY difficult to achieve (45 2.1 has told the forum many times that it is a process that takes long time and much shooting to achieve, and he is 100% right).
4. Slow twist shooters say "oh you guys are just talk and we don't believe your methods work"
Now we are at a stalemate, and bickering starts because nobody sees any reason to back down, and mods intervene.

I thought cainttype had a good idea when he started the thread in Special Projects for the slow twist followers and other interested shooters. I recognize btroj's right to post wherever he wants to on this forum, but the name of the thread should maybe have tipped him off that this was a thread where his shooting would not be the primary focus (unless he considers his rifle to have a slow twist). So maybe some self-policing would be a good idea for some; there have been many posts in this forum where I scratched my head an thought "huh?", but then I realized that the poster had a right to his opinion, and that inserting mine wouldn't do a darn thing for civil discourse on the forum.

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Honestly and objectively, I have to agree with that synopsis. You left out the deliberate trolls taking sides and throwing rotten fruit and jeering their particular heroes (oddly, most of them are on the slow-twist/rpm "side" of things, a division that they themselves have created more or less) which always fans the flames, much to their amusement. I submit Sgt Mike, Onceabull, Swheeler, and a few others from the past as examples who never post groups, probably shoot very little, yet participate for their amusement as examples.) I see you're as sick of the whole mess as we are.

Gear

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Originally Posted by Bjornb

And that's where the results will have to continue to be posted. This site clearly does not want our shooting posted, or even discussed. I just saw a whole thread disappear, with dozens of posts that took many hours of loading and shooting to create. Luckily I still have the pictures on my computer, mostly with the data written on them.

I don't understand why we cannot have spirited debate and even arguments, these are not subjects where kum-bah-yah is common and there are several schools of thought that all have very opinionated defenders. And so what? I saw no name calling in the XCB thread that disappeared, and none in the Slow Twist thread that was just closed in Special Projects. It's time to put on Big Boy Pants and allow the discussion to cover more than 10 grains of Unique in a 1903 Springfield (no offense to the 1903).

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That is spoken like a fellow with a short history on this site. Spirited debates and even arguments are regular fare here as long as it doesn't get personal and folks start hurling insults. This particular topic has been discussed over and over again on this forum with much spirit. However there are two long time members here that go at each other every time it comes up. They are neither gentle or courteous in their combat. Neither one seems to have the ability to resist a challenge from the other. There is obvious personal animus every time this comes up.

After years of this, folks have just grown tired of it, as it devolved into a conflict of egos that just happened to manifest itself as ballistic theory and opinions. Now you know the story.

Personal animus is a very polite way of putting it. Very, very polite.

Sadly, the subject heads for a train wreck just about every time it comes up. There is knowledge to be gleaned, but you have to sort through a lot of "stuff" to get to it.

The thread in question was started with the idea to simply ALLOW the slow-twist testers to post RESULTS, and allow them to voice OPINIONS... right, or wrong.
The animosity that always arise is simply PREVENTING those results from being posted, and there are many members here that are interested in seeing those results documented HERE.

Gear, if you look at the closed thread it is obvious that my intention was just to provide a small spot where we might finally be able to allow everyone a place to voice opinions, by suggesting (several times) to have totally separate threads running simultaneously.
As far as old grudges or misdeeds, I was hoping we could ALL do better. The thread would still be up and running (as is Run's) if those arguements weren't raised again... How many threads have been handled this way? Why not provide a separate thread, that everyone recognizes represents a single opinion, to go unaccosted in the manner that other threads are running by banning members from participating in?
I know full-well that fairly high velocities ARE achievable in some factory supplied twist rates... I was running a new 270 grain cast from a 24" 1-12 375 H&H at 2400fps last weekend and quit working up from fatigue...there's only so much of that I'm willing to absorb in one day. I have no general use for anything higher than that, in any caliber, but I know it can be done .
That said, I'd STILL like to see how far Larry, Bjorn, and Tim can push their rifles and casts. The problem is it appears unrealistic that we will ever see the entire spectrum discuss HV without moderators having to step in and... well... "moderate".

Why can't we have SEPARATE threads where each viewpoint can be explored without the BS bickering??? It's too easy... Is that it? Too easy?
What reasonable objection to ADDING to the info available here by separating the two camps completely can there possibly be?
We already KNOW that it is the only way...Why not admit it, and let results tell their own stories?
What is there, really, to fear?.... Nothing? GREAT!... Then let's do it, and your support could help make it a simple fix.

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Originally Posted by btroj

Personal animus is a very polite way of putting it. Very, very polite.

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I do try and use words that describe yet do not inflame. Over an ice cold Corona beer, I would be much for direct, much more!

I would like to see what the slow twist, custom barrel guys can do with cast. I think cainttype's suggestion is worthy of implementation. In the meantime all the work being done with fast twist HV has made me interested in seeing what I can do in a Brit and I need something for some of them to do.

Is there a bench rest cast boolit discipline?