Lyman foster slugs

I bought the mould before I found this forum. I was rather disconcerted to drop a slug as cast through the bore. The damn things are too big for a shot cup and too small to touch the rifling.

I cut several sheets of writing paper into 1/2 in x 8in strips and using elmers glue on a waxpaper lined cookie sheet I wrapped them. I have loaded these over 18gr of Red Dot with two 1/2 fiber wads. They shoot fine in smooth bores. I haven't tried them in my rifled barrel yet.

I have since bought a 525 air gun pellet Lyman mould. My son bought a lathe. We need to buy a boring bar and learn to run it. I may just cut bearing bands in the foster slug mould and make a .730 minie ball mould.

Yes, the Lyman Foster is undersize. Mine casts at 0.705" but I have seen posts saying that some cast as small as 0.680" (that should fit a shotcup). I believe (but don't know) that the Lyman slugs cast undersize because originally Lyman made rifling swaging tools to put rifling on the slugs. My suspicion is that the swaging process added about 0.010" deep rifling so the finished slug would be 0.020" larger diameter than as cast making it about bore diameter. I am giving Lyman the benefit of the doubt here because if I am wrong then making a mould to cast undersize slugs is just a bad idea and they shoudl know better.

Not sure why you would use glue. Just wet or dry wrap and they should be fine.

I did the same thing for the same reason many years ago and found it did help with accuracy in smoothbore. I used heavy brown paper and made two or three wraps to bring the slug up to bore size. Groups shrank considerably at 50 yards though they were never much less than about 6" to 8" groups and even after paper patching I had occasional fliers. I figured the paper patch was suffering what with opening a crimp then the jump though the forcing cone.

Glue may help the paper with opening the crimp but may also hold the patch together and on the slug which I think is a bad thing. I wanted the patch to leave the slug at the muzzle just as PP boolit shooters do.

Using a boring bar to put driving bands on the slug is a good way to go I think. A few here have done that. Alternately you could just bore the mould slightly larger diameter. While you are at it you may want to modify the core pin to produce a somewhat thicker nose on the slug and maybe a little thicker skirt, though driving bands will help there.

A simpler solution is to go with the Lee Drive Key slug or the Lyman sabot slugs which you have already discovered. Not sure why Lyman doesn't either start making the Foster moulds to cast bore diameter slugs or just quit making them. I have not heard of many success stories with Lyman Foster slugs.

Longbow

I've never had any luck with those Lyman slugs. Ever the tinkerer, I might try boring my mold to see if I can improve it. Paper patching also seems like an interesting approach. Always looking to improve.

Maybe the reason for its under-sizing. The shooting thru European damascus steel barrels.

I used elmers glue as I had no idea how to paper patch them before I joined this forum. I assumed a glue was used. Yes I know what happens when you assume. :???:

The paper patch sheds itself at the muzzle as you see it more or less puff to bits.

I cast a dozen more after reading how to paper patch bullets. Easy peasy and was a bit surprised at well it worked without glue. Thanks for the input and I will either sell this mold or learn to run a lathe and boring bar and make it a .730 minie ball.

With the hollow base they should expand to take the rifling like a Minnie Ball and should shoot fine in a smooth barrel as well. I have one of the old setups Lyman made to make rifled slugs for 20 ga , never used it but I intend to try them some day . I have shot some of the smooth 12 ga Lyman slugs cast and loaded by a friend and they shot reasonably well in my Winchester M 1912 with cylinder choke 20" barrel .

Eddie

The Lyman Fosters are so far undersize I doubt they will shoot well and without a wad to keep pressure behind the slug it is possible that the thin nose may rupture. Minies have much thicker noses and generally shorter, thick skirts. Also, they are marginally smaller than bore diameter not 0.024" as mine cast.

In fact in my experience and that of many posters here, the Lyman Fosters do not shoot well using Lyman recommended load data.

Yes, your rifling swage may well bring the undersize Foster up to or near bore diameter. My suspicion is that Lyman made the moulds undersize with the intention of the rifling being swaged on which if it raises diameter by 0.010" each land, makes for 0.020" increase bringing my 0.705" diameter slugs to 0.725" which is very close to bore diameter. My opinion only.

If you are inclined to try the Lyman Foster as a Minie with full smokeless powder charges just make sure you check the bore to ensure a skirt is not left and I suggest looking for slugs in your backstop to check condition. Better to shoot into water or a soft media at distance to recover slugs for examination. If they are stretching or the nose is bulging you are on the edge of a problem.

I blew gas seals right through the slugs. So once the gas seal failed the slug would have been taking the pressure like a Minie. That didn't go so well. I do not believe the wad had enough energy/momentum to shoot through the slug given a gap of about 5/8" to get going. I believe the gas seal pushed into the cavity and of course was not sealing at that point so the slug was trying to contain the pressure but failed.

Again, unlike a Minie in a muzzleloader the Foster slug will be jumping though a gap between hull thickness and chamber diameter, entering a forcing cone then being squeezed back down to bore diameter if it expands as you want it to.

Also, curious as to what group size you got when you say "...they shot reasonably well in my Winchester M 1912 with cylinder choke 20" barrel ." Not criticizing just asking since I have been unable to get groups any better than about 6" at 50 yards using Lyman Fosters no matter what load I used or advice I got. I have had many other slugs group considerably better and even plain old round balls from smoothbore do 3" to 4" at 50 yards. The 6" groups were after paper patching to bore size. As cast more like 8" to 10" groups on a good day. I gave up on them.

Longbow

I don't know how he loaded them and I no longer have any of them or I would cut one and see . He gave them (2 Boxes ) to me 30 + years ago and I killed several deer with them at short range . I don't have anything on the Winchester but a front bead so I rate 6" at 40-50 yds as very good for my use. If I think I will be shooting farther than that I carry a rifle since the area I hunt is not restricted . I carry the shotgun during season when I am on my tractor for deer and an occasional coyote .

Eddie
P.S. I don't take what you say as criticizing , I am learning from what you say .:mrgreen:

Everyone has different accuracy standards. I had read that the Lyman Foster could produce 4" groups at 100 yards from a good gun (I believe I read that in a Lyman manual). With all the slug shooting I have done I have not achieved 4" groups at 50 yards using Lyman Foster slugs much less 100 yards.

I have loaded and shot AQ slugs which shot very well and gave me some sub 6" groups at 100 yards but they are a bit pricey for general shooting... and no longer available. I have also shot Remington Sluggers and the old Federal Foster rifled slugs (pre Tru-Ball) and gotten 6" +/- a bit with my Browning BPS slug gun. If I could do that on demand with home cast and loaded slugs I wouldn't still be searching for "the load" or "the slug"... but the search continues.

For me the Lyman was a total flop. SluggerDoug got good accuracy of around 6" (IIRC) at 100 yards with them by making a "rifling" machine using helical gears to swage grooves into the slugs and made then right on bore diameter.

I have been told that putting a copper or brass washer in top of a hard card wad column under Lyman Fosters provides enough support that they will give "amazing" groups at 100 yards. Again I got something far less than amazing at 50 yards from that.

I'd say it is all me except I have shot some slugs that do very much better giving groups of 3" +/- a bit at 50 yards and some factory slugs grouped down to 2" all home loaded. It is getting the home cast and home loaded slugs to do that consistently that is evading me and I think wad column is the weak point. Actually to 50 yards is not that hard to get sub 4" groups using several slugs or even plain old round balls. It is the 100 yard challenge of keeping groups smaller than about 10" consistently that is the challenge for me and the Lymans are not even in the game.

Yes, rifle sights or a scope would shrink groups considerably (or most likely) even at 50 yards. Not saying a guy who practices a lot can't get good accuracy with just a front sight, many smoothbore muzzleloader shooters do well with just front sight. However, it is much easier to get consistent accuracy with rifle sights or scope.

Not too many years ago a guy on this site was selling a Lyman rifling swage like your 20 ga. swage kit. I thought about buying it just to try it but decided I really didn't like casting with my Lyman Foster mould anyway as the core pin sticks and the slugs have such a thin nose and skirt that even if the rifling brought it up to bore size or at least accuracy improved I felt there were better choices ~ like the Lyman sabot slug and Lee Drive Key slug. I have not tried the Lyman sabot slug but should. I did buy a Lee Drive Key slug mould and it shot reasonably well first time out giving fairly consistent 6" group sat 40 yards. not stellar but not bad for first time out. I have not pursued it much because I made Brenneke style moulds with attached wads (some screw on and some moulded on) that did better. More work but more accurate. Still playing with those if I ever get more time... or money having been out of work some lately.

If I was playing with rifled gun I would be using a solid slug or at least very thick skirted slug just to get longer bearing surface without excessive weight. I like slugs to be 600 grains or less as load data is much easier to find that the real heavyweights. Plus they are easier on lead supplies. Shooting slugs of 700 grs. and up eats up lead quick and no need for such massive boolits. Again my opinion/preference only, to each his own. I do like the Kynoch Paradox slugs which run 750 grs. or so and one day will have a rifled gun and Paradox mould but wouldn't be plinking with them!

Anyway, I am rambling on here once again. I think I am off topic now too. Sorry, I get gabbing and can't stop... too much momentum!

Longbow

..............DanishM1Garand, I did what you were suggesting for one of my customers several years ago:

http://www.fototime.com/B14C8C7293C3501/standard.jpg

By the way, you do NOT have to buy a boring bar for this job. If you do much of this type thing you'll find that fairly inexpensive drill blanks will become your friend, as below:

http://www.fototime.com/A7FCD0C7C32B712/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/FBC4A50229228CB/standard.jpg

You can grind your own boring bars/form tools/spoons, or whatever you want to call them. I do not have any fancy grinding equipment. I have your standard bench grinder, a Balbor type grinder with a diamond wheel, and a set of diamond files, and an assortment of stones. All the above were made from drill blanks which are simply HSS sticks, ie; A drill bit with no flutes. They were also made before I had the Baldor. Just takes a bit of careful and thoughtful work.

More importantly, doing work like inside those mould blocks means you cannot see what you're doing. You'd mentioned having access to a lathe. Since I have no idea what it is, or how it's equipped I'll simply relate how I did it on my 11" Logan. After taking measurements of the mould cavity, I had to produce the tool to cut the drive band widths to what I wanted. Measuring to the depth required from the base of the blocks, measuring the "DEPTH" from the ID of the core pin bore to the ID of the slug + adding in the depth of the cut required to produce the drive band + a bit of clearance through the core pin bore.

This was all measured and then added to a drawing of the required tool. After it was committed to paper it was then double checked to make sure I hadn't forgotten anything. Since my lathe doesn't have a DRO, long before I'd fabbed up fixtures to clamp to the bed and the headstock, by which I could attach a 1" or 2" DI which would bear on the carriage for X axis feed. The compound was going to be used to feed the tool on the Y axis (depth of cut) so a another DI was attached to the cross slide to read on the compound.

BTW, your tool MUST be SHARP, as it is of rather small cross section, it's 'Stuck out', and you're cutting on a comparatively broad face. You take small incremental feeds on the tool when cutting. Also when setting up, the tool MUST be centered on the work. Too low and the tool may want to grab, too high and it won't want to cut. Normally cast iron is cut dry but I used WD-40 and it worked just fine.

You won't really be able to hear the tool cutting, but if you just 'Lay' (barely touch) a fingertip on the tool shank when you crank the compound out, you'll feel it begin cutting (faint high freq vibration) , and you'll feel it stop cutting. I don't recall now how much I fed to cut, but it wasn't much. Maybe .003 - .005", don't remember. Just be gentle to start and remember you're NOT in a hurry. Since you're hand grinding the tools, if you bust it your chances of creating an exact duplicate will definitely be problematic.

The large photo of that Medieval looking form tool was used to make a swage die for these slugs for paper patching:

http://www.fototime.com/6DD15BDBE5D31B1/standard.jpg http://www.fototime.com/129DCEECEED65CD/standard.jpg

The right photo getting ready to make another pass into a swage die body. Even though that tool is a monster compared to what you'd used for that slug mould, it has a huge cutting area as it cuts from the tip to the heel, so small cuts and slow feeds are required to prevent it flexing/vibrating. As you can see from the finish on the swaged slugs, if sharp they'll produce a very fine finish.

http://www.fototime.com/8303120BB3ED705/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/B64AAA33A9F0150/standard.jpg

When I got a rifled bbl for my Mossberg 500, I wanted a full sized slug (above) so I made a mould to cast the above slug. It weighs 525 grs. I filled the base of one with hot glue just for fun and IIRC it weighed 532 grs.

http://www.fototime.com/EA6CBE1EF182084/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/8AA949CD5B29C6F/standard.jpg

After making the blocks, they were chucked up in the 4 jaw and the cavity was cut using the 'Ho-Made' form tools. On the right is the blocks assembled complete with a captured core pin.

http://www.fototime.com/49F3E03B63F0C68/standard.jpg

A set of Quick 'n' Dirty blocks and a cavity bored for a 20 ga slug, again using simple ho-made form tools.

..............Buckshot

I was/am considering the same solution. Use of a hand reamer of 18.5mm (.72+") diameter could suffice. Could even leave a slight shoulder for roll crimp to settle upon. Trouble is, the reamers are not inexpensive, about 45 dollars delivered and the iron mold may not be easily reamed of about 1/10 millimeter of material.

prs

I have that mold, and used a boring bar to open it to .730. I still have trouble getting it to shoot accurately. The skirt walls are so thin that they collapse at the setback of firing. Possibly making up a smaller diameter plug would help by thickening the walls. Also wads tend to blow up into the hollow base. I have tried filling the hollow base with hot melt glue, which helps a little. Possibly using the plastic doughnut wads instead, may help here. Before boring the mold out, I used adhesive based mailing labels to wrap the slug with. The results were also inconsistent. My solution was just to use the old .735 round ball, which works oh, so well.

I have a soft spot for round balls too!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Buckshot

..............DanishM1Garand, I did what you were suggesting for one of my customers several years ago:

http://www.fototime.com/B14C8C7293C3501/standard.jpg

By the way, you do NOT have to buy a boring bar for this job. If you do much of this type thing you'll find that fairly inexpensive drill blanks will become your friend, as below:

http://www.fototime.com/A7FCD0C7C32B712/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/FBC4A50229228CB/standard.jpg

You can grind your own boring bars/form tools/spoons, or whatever you want to call them. I do not have any fancy grinding equipment. I have your standard bench grinder, a Balbor type grinder with a diamond wheel, and a set of diamond files, and an assortment of stones. All the above were made from drill blanks which are simply HSS sticks, ie; A drill bit with no flutes. They were also made before I had the Baldor. Just takes a bit of careful and thoughtful work.

More importantly, doing work like inside those mould blocks means you cannot see what you're doing. You'd mentioned having access to a lathe. Since I have no idea what it is, or how it's equipped I'll simply relate how I did it on my 11" Logan. After taking measurements of the mould cavity, I had to produce the tool to cut the drive band widths to what I wanted. Measuring to the depth required from the base of the blocks, measuring the "DEPTH" from the ID of the core pin bore to the ID of the slug + adding in the depth of the cut required to produce the drive band + a bit of clearance through the core pin bore.

This was all measured and then added to a drawing of the required tool. After it was committed to paper it was then double checked to make sure I hadn't forgotten anything. Since my lathe doesn't have a DRO, long before I'd fabbed up fixtures to clamp to the bed and the headstock, by which I could attach a 1" or 2" DI which would bear on the carriage for X axis feed. The compound was going to be used to feed the tool on the Y axis (depth of cut) so a another DI was attached to the cross slide to read on the compound.

BTW, your tool MUST be SHARP, as it is of rather small cross section, it's 'Stuck out', and you're cutting on a comparatively broad face. You take small incremental feeds on the tool when cutting. Also when setting up, the tool MUST be centered on the work. Too low and the tool may want to grab, too high and it won't want to cut. Normally cast iron is cut dry but I used WD-40 and it worked just fine.

You won't really be able to hear the tool cutting, but if you just 'Lay' (barely touch) a fingertip on the tool shank when you crank the compound out, you'll feel it begin cutting (faint high freq vibration) , and you'll feel it stop cutting. I don't recall now how much I fed to cut, but it wasn't much. Maybe .003 - .005", don't remember. Just be gentle to start and remember you're NOT in a hurry. Since you're hand grinding the tools, if you bust it your chances of creating an exact duplicate will definitely be problematic.

The large photo of that Medieval looking form tool was used to make a swage die for these slugs for paper patching:

http://www.fototime.com/6DD15BDBE5D31B1/standard.jpg http://www.fototime.com/129DCEECEED65CD/standard.jpg

The right photo getting ready to make another pass into a swage die body. Even though that tool is a monster compared to what you'd used for that slug mould, it has a huge cutting area as it cuts from the tip to the heel, so small cuts and slow feeds are required to prevent it flexing/vibrating. As you can see from the finish on the swaged slugs, if sharp they'll produce a very fine finish.

http://www.fototime.com/8303120BB3ED705/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/B64AAA33A9F0150/standard.jpg

When I got a rifled bbl for my Mossberg 500, I wanted a full sized slug (above) so I made a mould to cast the above slug. It weighs 525 grs. I filled the base of one with hot glue just for fun and IIRC it weighed 532 grs.

http://www.fototime.com/EA6CBE1EF182084/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/8AA949CD5B29C6F/standard.jpg

After making the blocks, they were chucked up in the 4 jaw and the cavity was cut using the 'Ho-Made' form tools. On the right is the blocks assembled complete with a captured core pin.

http://www.fototime.com/49F3E03B63F0C68/standard.jpg

A set of Quick 'n' Dirty blocks and a cavity bored for a 20 ga slug, again using simple ho-made form tools.

..............Buckshot

---

Buckshot,

Did the user give a Range report?


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