WARNING - Blue Dot Data

Have started using BD as I got a keg cheap long ago. All was well in 357 but the data in the Lyman CB Handbook for the 44mag is a different story. Load listed for 245 gr bullet is 15-18.4 gr. Older Hercules handbooks show from 14.3 to 16.6 as max (I didn't dig out the old books until I got back from the range). I am loading the RCBS 44-250KT and with 16 gr it is probably near max, heavy recoil and sticky extraction. Don't know if BD has changed over the years, the powder I have is probably 30 years old, but was properly stored. and I don't think a 2% increase in bullet weight would account for my results.

I guess my warning would be to consult more than one source if possible for load recipes.

Odds are good, Rich, that a 30 year old powder has lost some of its moisture. So, assume it is 5 percent faster than most books will have you believe. Not only that, consider you have a lot difference too from what the books have used. With your boolit, I would load at 14.5 for a round or two out the back door. If too hot, drop another half grain, and again if necessary for recoil comfort. You definitely will not need more for an effective round no matter which gun you shoot them with. Use standard LP primer. ... felix

Blue Dot's original niche was for use in heavy shotload magnum shotshells, which seldom run much past 13K PSI. I keep this in mind when using Blue Dot at more than twice that pressure gradient--to approach top-end loads cautiously, in case an excursion is in the works. I don't entirely trust published data with this powder, and work it up SLOWLY. 2400 is much better-behaved.

Back in the early 90's there was a plant explosion at Hercules.. and for a time Blue dot was unobtanium.. After the equipment was reworked and new batches started coming out, they noticed that it took less BD to make the same pressure.. if yours is pre 1990 ish, it is likely the original stuff.. if it is Alliant, then call it the later stuff where less = similar pressure.. (Alliant used to be Hercules).

This article used to be a sticky somewhere but I can't find it. There are a couple pictures and graphs that go with it but I'll have to find them as they don't "cut and paste". Let me know if you want them. The data and comments are the important part. My standard load using Blue Dot under the RCBS K .44 bullet is 17.3 gr of Alliant Blue Dot. Last month I chronographed it again out of my Ruger FTBH with 6 1/2" barrel. velocity was 1413 fps with an ES of 67 fps for the 12 shots. Accuracy is also excellent and cases ejected fine with no signs of excess psi. Note from the test that the psi is under the SAAMI MAP of 35,000 psi for the 44 magnum.

Larry Gibson

Hercules Blue Dot VS Alliant Blue Dot; .44 Magnum

Date: 15 April, 2009
Location: Tacoma Rifle and Revolver Range, University Place, Washington
Time: 1300 – 1600
Temperature: 43 – 50 degrees F.
Atmospheric pressure: 29.92
Wind: 2-5 mph from 0530
Test instrument: Oehler M43 Personal Ballistics Laboratory
Test Cartridge: .44 Magnum
Test Case: WW Winchester
Test primer: Federal 150 Large Pistol
Test Powders:
Hercules Blue Dot lot #BD152 purchased 10-15+ years ago as the price was $11.89
Alliant Blue Dot lot #289 shift 2, Feb 22, 2008 with a price of $20.89
Powder charge weights: 14.5 to 18.4 gr in .5 grain increments with all charges weighed on a Redding
powder scale
Test Bullet: RCBS 44-250-K cast of 60-40 WW (new) – linotype alloy, weight 252 gr, sized .430 in
Lyman 450 and lubed with Javelina
Load OAL: 1.705”
Crimp: Case mouth crimped completely under edge of forward driving band
Loading dies used: RCBS with carbide sizer
Shots in test string; 5
Test sequence: a test string was fired with the Hercules powder then the subsequent test string was of the same charge weight of Alliant powder. Thus test strings were concurrent from 14.5 gr up through the 18.4 gr powder charge weight

Results:
The M43 PBL provides much information that would result in an overly long report. Pertinent to the question of the difference between the older Hercules Blue Dot and the new Alliant Blue Dot is the comparison of velocity and pressure per a equal charge weight of each powder. Thus I shall report the muzzle velocity (corrected to muzzle by the M43) and the pressure (rounded to nearest 100 psi so 20,500 psi will read 20,5) for each powder charge weight of both Hercules and Alliant Blue Dots. The format will read the powder charge with the initial H or A in front, the muzzle velocity and the pressure in psi(M43).



H14.5/1330/24,3
A14.5/1310/25,2
H15/1368/26,3
A15/1340/27,4
H15.5/1412/28,5
A15.5/1380/28,3
H16/1447/30,4
A16/1438/31,6
H16.5/1493/32,6
A16.5/1464/31,4
H17/1521/32,4
A17/1498/32,8
H17.5/1541/31,4*
A17.5/1527/31,4*
H18/1565/29,1*
A18/1569/24,4*
H18.4/1589/20,5*
A18.41583/23,0*

* Note; these pressures are not misprints.

Discussion/conclusion; the tests proved interesting to say the least. I did not find any incident or indication of “pressure spikes”. To the contrary I found that as the load (17.5 gr and above) exceeded 100% loading density and be came compressed the pressure curve became longer with less pressure. As the powder charge increased and compression of the powder charge became greater the bottom literally fell out pressure wise. The velocity increase per increased powder charge also began to lesson. I discussed this at length with Dr, Oehler. While he modestly says he is not a ballistician (he is a gentleman of the old school) he thinks that ignition is a problem with the compressed loads. A magnum primer may or may not improve ignition and would have to be tested.

Quite frankly I find the 17 gr load of either the Hercules or the Alliant Blue Dot powder to be a good practical maximum with this bullet. Looking at the graph of PSI vs Powder charge we see that 17 gr is the peak with both powders. However when we look at the graph of FPS vs Powder charge it is difficult to make that distinction when comparing them to each other. The old Hercules Blue Dot loading data per Lyman was 15 to 18.4 gr with the 429421 cast bullet. The new Alliant Blue Dot data as per the “New Edition” 48th Lyman manual is 14.5 to 16 gr with that same 429421 cast bullet. Interesting to note is that with 429244 they listed 14 to 17.4 gr of Alliant Blue Dot. The Lyman pressures are lited in CUPs which aren’t directly convertible to psi so I won’t go there.

Keep in mind also the TC Contender hasn’t the long throat or the barrel/cylinder gap of revolvers. Thus the pressures in revolvers would no doubt be a little less per given powder charge. I will work up the same loads with Alliant Blue Dot from 14.5 to 17.5 gr in the ½ gr increments. I will then test these in my Ruger BH 50th Anniversary with 6 ½” barrel. Of course I do not have a strain gauge on the Ruger so I will be depending on the chronographed results to give indications of a good load, a bad load or “pressure spiking’.

Looking at both graphs it is apparent that with this test both the Hercules and Alliant Blue Dots are within normal lot to lot variation of each other. Basically, based on this test with a normal weight range cast bullet, there is no apparent difference between them either in burning rate or burning characteristics. Further testing with light weight jacketed bullets is in order but with the current situation I’ve not been able to find either 180 or 200 gr .44 jacketed bullets. Further testing in other cartridges such as the .357 and .41 magnums is in order also.

The photo of the fired cases is as they were fired in order. The green box contained the Hercules loads and the red box the Alliant loads. There was no indication of cartridges stick as all were easily extracted from the chamber of the Contender barrel with fingers. There is no appreciable indication of pressure by the look of the primers.

I shall continue to use Alliant Blue Dot as I find it to be a very fine powder for certain applications as id found the old Hercules Blue Dot to be. When using Alliant Blue Dot in a cartridge for which I only have older Hercules Blue Dot loads I will carefully work up loads again. I suggest anyone taking this data to do so with caution and work up your own loads as per instructions in all loading manuals.

Larry Gibson

Think I will take Felix's advce and cut the load. Oldest book I have lists 14.3 as max and will start about 13 and see how it goes. I have arthritis pretty bad in my hands and wrists and want a mild load that will still let me use my M29. Only using BD because I have about 8 lbs on hand and am too cheap to buy something else. Thanks everyone for the replies.

I'm leary of Blue Dot in magnum pistol loads ( especially for a beginner ) . I just think there are safer powders. I've read too much about Blue Dot and pressure spikes. AL has a good point " Blue Dot's original niche was for use in heavy shotload magnum shotshells, which seldom run much past 13K PSI."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ben

I'm leary of Blue Dot in magnum pistol loads ( especially for a beginner ) . I just think there are safer powders. I've read too much about Blue Dot and pressure spikes.
AL has a good point " Blue Dot's original niche was for use in heavy shotload magnum shotshells, which seldom run much past 13K PSI."

Just my thoughts.

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Scary spiky and the big flake meters poorly which is just what you want in a spiky powder.

Other than that, it's good stuff. [smilie=l:

imashooter2

The last time I mentioned anything about safety, I got accused of playing " The Safety Card", guess I'll get accused of that again now. Looks like you're subjecting yourself to that also..........

Ben

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ben

imashooter2

The last time I mentioned anything about safety, I got accused of playing " The Safety Card", guess I'll get accused of that again now. Looks like you're subjecting yourself to that also..........

Ben

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:rolleyes: I call 'em as I see 'em. I've loaded a bunch of Blue Dot over the years and no longer have any on the shelf. Others are free to disagree with me and / or load whatever they like.

i like blue dot - alot , it's one of the few shotgun/pistol powders i buy in jugs . i too recall problems with certain published loads , namely the lighter bullets in the 357 mag and i cant recall the weight but it was a heavier one in the 44 mag , i also didnt care for it in my 44 mag 'tender , the starting loads were great but i began having problems mid towards top loadings ( it was rather erratic IMHO )

as for the safety card ..i'll raise you guys another one , much better to be safe than sorry ! i can always up the charge a bit if needed , at least much easier than reducing a charge after it's too late [just sayin']

I also am a fan of blue dot. Works great for mid range loads in my 357, 44 spl and mag, and for Ruger only loads of 45 colt. On the other hand, I have lost faith in it for full magnum loads. Just a little to "twitchy".

I too have stopped using BD

Have found that it works as well as 2400 and you can use a lot less.. but it doesn't meter well in a powder measure--you have to weigh each charge. I've been told also can cause problems when used in cold weather.

I use BD in the .357 quite a bit with 358429. I load a max load per Lyman of 10 grs which gives me 1200 fps+ out of a 6" Ruger GP. Charges are thrown by a bushing type powder measure on my progressive press and charges may vary a 1/10th or 2 but that's not a problem. Chrono readings show ES's of 56 fps with SD's of 16 FPS which are pretty decent and as good as I get with 296,820,and 2400. Using lighter 158 and 150 gr bullets with the same load causes ES's to go over 100 fps and SD's in the 30's so it appears in the .357 BD likes heavier wts and high bullet pull. Accuracy is not quite as good as 820/296 but still will group about 3"@50yds so it's not too shabby. I like Blue Dot.

Let's not forget one very, very important factor when using any powder designed for shotshells: Compression. I'm far from an expert on powder burn characteristics, but I noticed that most magnum shotshell loads specify compression of the powder under the wad, i.e. no free air space. What's the loading density of a max charge of BD in a .44 or .357 Magnum? Lots of room in a case can do weird things with slow-for-cartridge powders at high pressures, except for 2400 as has been mentioned. 2400 seems to be stable in a variety of extreme situations.

I use Blue Dot for 9mm and .40 S&W top end loads, where in both cases it is compressed or near compressed, and I get excellent consistency. I DO NOT use it for .45 ACP, .357, or .44 Magnum. It is very handy in .45 Colt for standard-pressure loadings of extra-heavy boolits, like 300 or 340-grainers, but it's in it's intended pressure range and I help it out with a compressed load of good, inert filler.

Gear

I have used BD since just after it was released. The newer BD does seem to be more prone to rapid rises in pressure than the old.
I have a friend that is using an old container of BD in the 30-30 with a 125gr spitzer in an H&R. His load is 13grs. No flattened primers or case expansion above normal. This was a gun I sold him and I gave him the info on that load.
I used to use this load in my Contender carbine but with the new container I have I dropped it to 11 grs.
I do use it in the 357, 41, 9X18, 30-40, 30-30, 30-06, with no issues as long as I load conservatively. Does seem to be a little sensitive to the heat, but not more than some other powders. But at 110' plus what can you expect.

Felix is right about using standard primers, too. IME, BD gets "twitchy," as you say, whenever I have used magnum primers.

I have been using Hercules BD for over 20 years. When its gone I'm not sure I will buy the newer Alliant BD. In fact, I've already picked up a keg of AA9 to try and I'm looking at Longshot and Ramshot True Blue as alternatives also.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rich/WIS

Have started using BD as I got a keg cheap long ago. All was well in 357 but the data in the Lyman CB Handbook for the 44mag is a different story. Load listed for 245 gr bullet is 15-18.4 gr. Older Hercules handbooks show from 14.3 to 16.6 as max (I didn't dig out the old books until I got back from the range). I am loading the RCBS 44-250KT and with 16 gr it is probably near max, heavy recoil and sticky extraction. Don't know if BD has changed over the years, the powder I have is probably 30 years old, but was properly stored. and I don't think a 2% increase in bullet weight would account for my results.

I guess my warning would be to consult more than one source if possible for load recipes.

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I have used Blue Dot with 12 gr for 925 fps avg. and 13.7 gr. for 1150 fps avg. out of a Smith & Wesson with 7-1/2" barrel with a similar boolit only gas checked Lyman 429244. It was a darn good load.