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I have always been told that the 1887 12 gauge never was made to take smokeless loads. And that the Model 1901 10 gauge was the only one of these 1887 models to be made out of nickel steel. Is there someone who can enlighten me here? Because I have just been informed that some of the later 12 gauge 1887`s was made to take 2 3/4" shells, and made out of "real" steel.
Can this be true?
Hednign,
Good to see you're still kicking.
I certainly don't know absolutely other than what sources like Madis indicate. I think generally what you heard is about right. The first smokeless shotshells became available about 1903. For certain the early M87s were designed for blackpowder and predated smokeless loads of any kind. Madis also states that the M01s were built with smokeless loads in mind. Since smokeless rifle loads and rifles designed for it had been around since about 1895, makes sense that Winchester would have had smokeless in mind for the M01.
The exact type of steel used for both seems a little fuzzy in the resources but indicate that is was nickel steel. It is also stated that the M87 receiver (and for sure the early M87s) were simply case hardened while the M01 receivers were fully heat hardened. Standard barrel type for both models was rolled steel but laminated (generally and incorrectly called Damascus) steel was available if ordered.
Thank you... that was informative as h...... Yep, Im still kicking. Been a little too busy at work the past few months. Im working with Americans now. Oh yes, you got a bunch of them in Oslo right now. Builiding the new American Embassy. Great guys... But a lot of work.
I have been offered a Winchester 1887 that has been rechambered for the 70mm shotshell. That should be 2 3/4". And he tells me that it is a rather uniqe model, the first of its kind to take smokeless loads (made of steel). Maybe it has been hardened by someone, or by Winchester later in its life. I don`t know. I don`t know how the old steel behaves if you harden it through out either. I don`t need nor do I want to use Nitro powder in my antique guns. BP is good enough. Infact, the difference between a BP shotshell and a standard nitro shotshell is not that big. I have made BP shotshell that shoots harder and that gives a better pattern than standard out of the shelf nitro shotshells.
This link sends you to a rather interesting thread about BP vs Nitro......
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...8b52a&start=20
Hednign,
Lots of good info in that thread! Thanks for the link.
The steel question about the M87, the fellow is offering, would be hard to ascertain. The story of the US Springfield M1903 is a perfect example. Heat treat good steel the wrong way and it acts like brittle glass, heat treat the same steel correctly and it's working surface is hard enough to resist wear yet maintains its integral toughness.
As to the question of the M87 vs M01 receivers? From a practical view I wouldn't hesitate to shoot mild charges of the right kind of smokeless powder and payload column in the M87. But no need in pushing the envelope and no need to prematurely wear one out or overly flex the action. As pointed out in the thread, there are differences in how "pressure" is measured and how it is interpreted. The problem with using smokeless "on the edge", so to speak, is the progressive nature of smokeless. I've found ballistically duplicating blackpowder loads using smokeless is difficult. One very tiny booboo and... kaboom. So yes, for this type shotgun, getting good ballistics with blackpowder is so very forgiving and straight forward why "tempt fate" with the smokeless for minimal gain.
Couldn`t agree more. In a shotgun you will not gain that much by using smokeless. Those little round pellets loose velocity so fast after leaving the muzzle anyway.... Even with black powder you can make the loads too speedy. Even using a modern cup to hold the shot I have managed to make donut patterns. That was in a 10 gauge M87, but anyway. The best shotgun I have ever been hunting with was an old Husqvarna BP single shot 16 gauge with a looong barrel. It made a pattern so tight you almost wanted to get a long range. It was just one amazing shotgun. In the end it couldn`t take it anymore. The lock was all used up. Theese days Im using an old Winchester 1897 and an even older 1887 12 gauge. I wish the lever didn`t have to travel half way to the next county to get a new shell chambered though. Nevertheless, I don`t a modern short stroke modern pump or semi.....
That's all so true! Shotgun ballistics, both internal and external, are so very complex and so overlooked. That hard shot cup and/or the dense over powder wads added to the gas muzzle pressure all out of balance or in wrong combination can really wreak havoc with shotgun patterns. The donut pattern is very telling. Finding that super combination of gun and load for nice, evenly dense patterns is not common or easy sometimes but is always a joy!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hednign
The 1887 shotguns that were imported by Coyote Cap and made in China are excellent shotguns. They are pressure tested to well beyond both BP and smokeless pressures. They may be fired with any current loadings.
The original 1887 should be fired with BP only as it only has about 8-9000 PSI. The 1901 was made with nickel steel and was intended to be used with the early smokeless powder loads.
I have owned two of the ones made by Cap and wish that I had mine back as it was a fun shotgun to shoot.
I cannot add any great enlightment to this other than many years ago a fella dropped off a 87 for repair and put a spring in the action. This is very interesting hunk of metal and while kinda cute for its day I sure am glad they soon invented the model 12. He was happy and I found out about a gun I never knew existed.
The original 1887 both 10 and 12 ga were black powder only. The next eveloution of the lever shotgun was the 1901 model in 10 ga only. It was made to handle the early smokeless powders. Winchester did not produce a 12 ga model 1901, reasoning was they did not want it to compete with the Winchester model 1897 in 12 gauge which was a very successful pump shotgun.
Two original 1887's. 10 an 12 ga.
https://i.postimg.cc/1306Vsh8/20180724-103731.jpg
It might be a reproduction, which where made for smokeless modern ammo. In the originals, only BP should be used. I have an original 10 gauge 1887 and I love shooting that thing.
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A local idiot had a 87 that had been sawed off and he used it to deer hunt with Slugs. Chamber had to have been reamed. I wouldn’t have wanted near him while he was shooting. Gun had enough tape and wire on it to start a HWD store.