1895 Winchester 30-03 excessive headspace and fireforming

I have a neat old Winchester 1895 in 30-03 caliber. From what I have read, the only difference between the 03 case and the 06 case was neck length. When I first got the rifle, I tried 30-06 in it but only a couple of rounds since the primers were backing out about half their thickness and it made me nervous. I took the rifle to a gunsmith to have him check the headspace and the rifle easily chambered the no go and field gauges. He said no worry as he had an adjustable micrometer type gauge. After several tries and having the gauge at its maximum length, we were still not able to measure headspace! So somewhere in excess of .035".
So, I acquired a small amount of .280 Remington brass and opened the neck up to .30 cal. The empty cases chambered just fine in the rifle. I had some 215gr lead bullets with gas checks and have loaded them into the cases with 12.5gr Unique. I wanted to load them long so that the bullet touched the rifling and closing the action would force the bullet into the case a bit and keep the base of the cartridge tight against the bolt face. It seems that is not possible as the loaded cartridges are at the max length to fit into the open action and the action will close easily without changing their length. There is maybe just .125" of bullet in the case neck so not even possible to make them longer.
So my question is, do you think what I have now will fire form to eliminate the headspace issue? I am going to the range tomorrow to try them.

I imagine you’ve found out by now, but headspace issues in lever actions are not uncommon. The 1895 was more massive and more precisely fitted up than some of the others, but the .30-03 and -06 (and the 7.62 x 54) were about at the limits, even for it. Those long bolts and the pounding they got would shorten them a little. A friend had a Russian 95 that would partially open on firing. There’s a headspace problem to make one nervous! :grin:

If the crush fit with the boolits trick doesn’t work, you could expand the neck to .32 or .35 caliber (or get some .35 Whelen brass), anneal it and gradually neck size it back down to .30 caliber until the action just closes, load and fireform. That should push the rest of the shoulder fully forward.

The late Ken Howell made up a series of “commonsense wildcats” that seemed, from his descriptions, to be made on slightly lengthened .30-06 brass. He seemed to imply that the brass was available. You might try searching for “.30 Howell” and see if you can find any. If they were .30-03 length, you would be all set. Ken’s old posts should still be on 24hr Campfire.

I would fire form some cases with cream of wheat and a fast pistol powder instead of a bullet, along with using the false shoulder Bent Ramrod mentions above.

Do as Bent Ramrod said- it's exactly the same process as firing a standard round in an AI chamber.

I would have the barrel set back and re-chamber the gun to 30-06 setting it back will allow you to do this. It is not like a 30-03 round should find its way into it.

A good smith can do this easily for you.

I took the rifle to the range today and shot my 18 reloads of 12.5 grains Unique and a 215 grain cast bullet in .280 Remington cases. Shot real low at 50 yards and while I didn't bother with a paper target, most of the clay pigeon pieces did not survive. The first shot was with a case that had a dent in the shoulder that did not come out but the primer stayed where it is supposed to. One case split its neck - this is previously fired brass that was given to me and supposedly once fired but I don't really know. The primers stayed put in all of them but I do not know if the shoulder bumped out or not or if the extractor simply held the case tight to the bolt. When I make it to the reloading room, I will find the the 30-06 case gauge to see if the shoulder has moved or is different then a 30-06 case.
I have the ability and the equipment to set the barrel back myself but but so far have decided not to add it to my long list of gun projects.

It appears that the shoulder did not move forward at all. In fact when I drop a fired case in the gauge, it is maybe .025" (a guess) below the surface of the gauge. It doesn't make sense. I'm not sure what I may have done wrong and pretty sure I just neck sized the cases but will try again. Maybe switch to another powder like bullseye or up the charge a bit? This is my first time attempting this kind of thing. This evening I annealed the case necks and will load them again in the morning.

Don't load them. Expand the necks to at least 8mm, take one and gradually size the neck until the bolt closes on it. Size the rest of them to this. Now load to a normal light load and fire. As I said - the same procedure as firing a normalized case in an AI chamber - you can do it with a factory load.

I started this project years ago and may have done something like that with the cases since the bolt would not close on the empty case. I used the .30-06 cal sizing die and adjusted it until the bolt would close so along the same lines as you are saying. I do have some 8x57 dies that I could borrow the expander from. AI = Ackley Improved?

When you get your brass formed be sure to slug your barrel. I tried .308 bullets in my 30-03 and the results were dismal to say the least. Turns out my barrel is .304 x .312 when I went to .312 bullets I could shoot groups instead of shotgun patterns.

So I used an 8mm expander on the case and then ran it into the 30-06 die to neck just enough of the neck, maybe .080" or so to hold the bullet. It took some extra force to close the bolt which seemed to indicate this would work. I shot it and looked at the case to see the primer had backed out maybe .025" or so. Brought it all home and dropped the fired case in the gauge to see it fall below the surface. It seems that the firing pin hits with enough force to drive the case forward till it stops on the shoulder and then ignites allowing the primer to back out. Guess I do have to add this one to my list of gun projects!

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Originally Posted by Gazz

So I used an 8mm expander on the case and then ran it into the 30-06 die to neck just enough of the neck, maybe .080" or so to hold the bullet. It took some extra force to close the bolt which seemed to indicate this would work. I shot it and looked at the case to see the primer had backed out maybe .025" or so. Brought it all home and dropped the fired case in the gauge to see it fall below the surface. It seems that the firing pin hits with enough force to drive the case forward till it stops on the shoulder and then ignites allowing the primer to back out. Guess I do have to add this one to my list of gun projects!

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There's another fireforming procedure that involves a few grains of Bullseye, the rest of the case full of a buffer, and no bullet. I've done this, forming .300 H&H to .300 Weatherby, and it worked pretty well. Got the recipe from a gunsmith way up North, and long ago: 15 grains of Bullseye, and fill up the .300 H&H case with millet meal. Point the rifle up, explain to your fellow shooters that you're not being an idiot, there's no bullet -- and fire away! A few of the fired cases were just a tiny bit short, which suggests that I could have used a little more powder, but why push it? Loading and firing them as normal will bring the case length up to spec.

There are a couple of differences between your project and mine, that you'll need to consider. The .300 H&H / .300 Wby headspaces on the belt, so I didn't have the problem of cases getting away into the front of the chamber. But you might have an answer to that. (Something bigger than 8mm?) My rifle was a Weatherby Mark V, so after the first shot worked, I didn't worry too much about chamber pressure. (In fact, the whole point of the exercise was to hit the brass hard enough to make it flow, and quickly, because when I had tried to fireform using a "normal" load, it just tore a big hole in the shoulder.) Your rifle is a lower pressure design, so you'll need to take that into account.

And where in heck do we get millet meal these days? :)

Anyhow, I don't think you're out of options. Good luck!

Thanks for that idea. I don't have any millet meal but I think I have some corn meal! I do have some .35 Whelen dies but I think that may be to much as there is some force required to close the action when the cases are expanded to 8mm. I'll give the food stuff load a shot in the morning.

Yes, AI = Ackley Improved

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Originally Posted by Gazz

Thanks for that idea. I don't have any millet meal but I think I have some corn meal! I do have some .35 Whelen dies but I think that may be to much as there is some force required to close the action when the cases are expanded to 8mm. I'll give the food stuff load a shot in the morning.

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Whoops, forgot to mention: 15 gr Bullseye was okay for .300 Wby, but for .30-03 / .30-06 you'd want quite a bit less. (No, I don't have a number. Think hard, and be careful.)

Since you have .35 Whelen dies, you might try expanding your case necks up to .35 and then running the cases into a .30-06 die just far enough so they'll chamber. With the corn meal trick, you wouldn't have to worry about whether there was enough case neck to hold a bullet, there's no bullet. :)

I believe opening the necks .35 and necking down to .30 until the empty case will chamber - did the trick but one mystery remains. I did one case loaded with the 215gr cast bullet to see if it would work and the primer did not back out. So I am happy with that. The mystery is that when the fired case drops into my case gauge, it is slightly below the surface and I would expect it to be a bit above since it is the shoulder I am moving out. There looks to be a slight change in the angle of the shoulder though.
My next question is since this method seems to produce a case that looks to be safe, can I go straight to jacketed bullets for my fireforming operation? I am planning to hunt this rifle on Saturday and need to pack and about a hundred other things before I leave so I need to pare down the list. At this point I am thinking that the rounds as loaded above with 180gr round nose jacketed bullets will also be my hunting round as well as the fireforming load. That is if the rounds will shoot a good deer killing 3 shot group. Any comments?

The hunt is over by now but a suggestion would be . spray the chamber and an inch or two of the bore with a silicone spray . lightly plug the barrel an inch above where the mouth of the chambered case will be. Melt some wax. old candle or such. Pour it into the chamber and let it harden. Push it out with a 30 cal. cleaning rod. Compare the bore cast to a reg 30-06 case and a case fired in this chamber. This should tell you what is needed to be done.

Also, keep your pressures down around 40,000 CUP or roughly that of 30-40 Krag pressures, as the original Winchester model '95s that were chambered for 30-03 and 30-06 were designed to tolerate 30-Gov't pressures. The higher pressures of the '06 cartridges of subsequent years are known to hammer the bolt face pretty badly and even said to stretch the receiver. This is also why the earlier flat side receivers gave way to the scalloped receiver with greater thickness alongside the bolt.

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Originally Posted by Gazz

It appears that the shoulder did not move forward at all. In fact when I drop a fired case in the gauge, it is maybe .025" (a guess) below the surface of the gauge. It doesn't make sense. I'm not sure what I may have done wrong and pretty sure I just neck sized the cases but will try again. Maybe switch to another powder like bullseye or up the charge a bit? This is my first time attempting this kind of thing. This evening I annealed the case necks and will load them again in the morning.

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Gazz,

Primers backing out AND shoulder moving back, while using 12.5 grains of Unique?

I shoot fart loads with in my 30-06 (8.5 grains of Bullseye with 200 grain boolit). I do not know what kind of load 12.5 grains of Unique is (sounds pretty light), but loads in this range have the desire to create both issues you are seeing. Each firing will move the shoulder back, until the head space is so messed up the firing pin cannot even fire the primer. The primer going off will be hammering the shoulder back, lacking pressure in the case to adhere the casing to the wall of the chamber quickly enough. Of course, the primer is backing out at the same, until the bolt face stops it.

JMHO, but this sounds exactly to me the problem you are having. Larry Gibson has a definitive understanding of this. While VERY light fart loads are the greater culprit, I saw the same problem with my fart loads at my pressure levels. Please use this link to one thread discussing this concept:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/arch.../t-343473.html

I have now shot a couple thousand rounds of my above load, and the shoulders of my 30-06 casings are where they belong, and my primers do not back out. And yes, I drill out the flash hole as described by Larry Gibson. Fixed my problems with primers and shoulder set back. Of course, these casings CANNOT be used for regular loads. CANNOT...

Of course, YMMV. This might not even be your problem, but it might bear looking into. Also, I would suggest you search CB for other thread covering this subject, as I know there are others.


Edit note: I deleted my reference to the firing pin taking part in the hammering of the shoulder back. I think I remember that Larry Gibson (??) proved it did not have any effect on that issue. It is just the primer pushing the casing forward with its energy on firing with light loads being unable to counter this.