1911 & SAA Sightless Point of Impacts

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I wanted to see where the points of impact would be with the 1911 vs. the SAA shooting “instinct” or sightless so I shot last night during the hours of darkness. Could not see the sights and could barely see the target. No bullseye, just a large piece of cardboard.

The 2 very different guns put the rounds at virtually the same place, low and left. Uploading pics for posting on this forum rotates the images for some reason. The actual point of impacts are about 6” left and 3” low. The cardboard was posted at a distance of 21 feet (7 yards) from me.

The 1911 load was 452374 (230 gr.) over 6 gr. of Unique. The SAA was a blued 7 1/2” .45 with 454190 (250 gr.) over 8.5 gr. of Unique.

Looks good. That would be a pretty sick bad guy, for sure.

Training that, you could even get to where you were dead on even without lights :)

Years ago a class I was taking on advanced self defense with pistols we trained to use the blinkers from a cars' 4-way flashers to aim by; You can get pretty good with ANY light at aligning the sights :)

Pretty good shooting. The guns I depend on, shoot where I'm looking. Low left is to be expected with aggressive trigger pull...

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Originally Posted by gnostic

Pretty good shooting. The guns I depend on, shoot where I'm looking. Low left is to be expected with aggressive trigger pull...

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gnostic, I do not agree with your suggestion that my trigger pull was aggressive. It will be a week before I’ll have an opportunity to hit the range and test your theory. I believe the groups to the left are due to my shooting one handed and being right handed. The arm is attached at the shoulder which is off center, holding the gun in front of you the NPA would put the rounds on the left of the target if the backstrap is centered in the hand.

It is your grip and trigger pull that move the point of impact when point shooting. Your POI looks low and right, not left but not bad for one inexperienced with point shooting. Anything which will help you find the end of your pistol will help in low or no light shooting. Bring the gun to eye level, even though you can not see the sights and fire. You will see what your sight picture was in the muzzle flash; if you don't like what you saw, make a correction and fire again.

There's some interesting ergonomics at work here. . .

Uncle Sam slapped the arched mainspring housing on the 1911-A1 because the WWI gun point-shot low. To me, the A1 is a much more natural pointing weapon (the original 1911 just points low for me, period), and the 1911-A1 and the Peacemaker are both about as instinctive as it gets.

The Colt SAA Bisley, to me, suffers from the same points-low problems of the WWI-era 1911.

I don't have any of the common complaints about Glocks either, as that grip is a lot closer to the 1911-A1 and Peacemaker than it is to the 1911 and the Bisley - lock the arm out and the sights are right there.

As to the rounds being left. . .I'm also a fan of the 1911-A1 format because of the shorter reach to the trigger - you can actually get your finger tip a lot closer to a 90-degree-perpendicular push to the rear than you can with the older system of parts. The long trigger might be correct for a guy who plays center for the NBA, but for anyone less than about 6'5", it's farther forward than ideal.

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Originally Posted by Dan Cash

It is your grip and trigger pull that move the point of impact when point shooting. Your POI looks low and right, not left but not bad for one inexperienced with point shooting. Anything which will help you find the end of your pistol will help in low or no light shooting. Bring the gun to eye level, even though you can not see the sights and fire. You will see what your sight picture was in the muzzle flash; if you don't like what you saw, make a correction and fire again.

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The OP states the pics are rotated when posted.
When you say not bad for one inexperienced in point shooting, are you referring to me as the shooter or you as the one commenting?

Instinctive point shooting is almost a lost art. First of all, this is not an "either/or" proposition. Instructors grouped in the point shooting camp clearly state that point shooting has its applications, and sighted fire has its application. During the course of a fight, you may have to flow from one to the other.

Point Shooting is a concept, not a method. If you want to know how to do it, it's not some secret magic technique. Fairbairn and Applegate described it half a century ago in publications you can download for free.

It only takes a couple of hours and about 200 rounds of ammo. The class is best described as Fast Effective Combat Shooting. The class teaches and conditions to get your gun into action quickly and effectively as possible to solve the problem at hand.

This is based on WWII techniques taught by Fairbairn and Applegate. The titles of some of the published sources he uses as references, "Shooting to Live" and "Kill or Get Killed" exactly describes the situations one is caught up in when this skill set is deployed.

Sighted fire has widespread appeal and point shooting is put down as voodoo science, because every aspect of sighted fire can be quantified and explained. Point shooting is more ambiguous, but within its envelope of effectiveness, it is fast and accurate, with the emphasis on FAST. It shines when the shooter is behind the reaction curve and must deal with a bad guy who has initiated the action, exactly what most private citizen shooting scenarios entail.

Matt Temkin's class dispels the myth that “Point shooting is no good at distances further than arm's length." "You can't point shoot while you're moving." "Point shooting is spraying and praying." Bravo Sierra~!

The key in owning this and doing your best using point shooting is pure aggression. You apply it by taking the fight to the enemy without thought. Put on your war face and just do it.

Point shooting is not a replacement for sighted fire. Use your sights when you need to, and when you can.
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Matt Temkin is a NYC Court Officer, Point Shooting and Combatives expert. For the record, Matt’s first instructor was one of Col. Darby’s original Rangers who saw combat in N. Africa and Italy (where he was wounded), was highly decorated, then became a Ranger instructor in close combat. That was Matt’s Dad…Matt also trained under Col. Rex Applegate, need I say more? Below is Matthew Temkin’s excellent four-part Point Shooting Lesson Plan. These were posted at his request and with permission. Due to their being transferred from one format to another, I have had to do some editing, mainly formatting so they would print properly.

Point Shooting Lesson Plan
(Parts 1 thru 3) Part 4 covering long gun application is not cross-posted here due to post length restrictions.

This plan is as a handout for instructor classes. To follow along you need KILL OR GET KILLED (KOGK) and SHOOTING TO LIVE (STL).

How I Teach Point Shooting - Part 1

1) History of Fairbairn, Sykes and Rex Applegate. Stress the huge combat/training experience of these men. Review the "typical" gunfights as described by both Fairbairn (SMP, pages 2-5 of STL) and Applegate. (Pages 99-106, KOGK)

What happened then still applies today.

2) Define the term "instinct" as it applies to the system. (Last line on page 5 of STL onto page 6) It just means the ability to point a finger at an object with great accuracy, allow the gun to become an extension of the hand, and the finger an extension of the barrel.

3) How to grip the pistol. Place your finger on the trigger, on the first crease, and grip it until it shakes. This is the convulsive grip as taught by Fairbairn. The handgun should now be in perfect alignment with the Y of your hand. (See pages 107 and 129 of KOGK).

4) Basic drill - dry fire. The simplest method of getting the right technique is to grip the gun in a two hand "Pre Modern" Isosceles, with the feet in a "horse stance". (very slight crouch)

Now release your weak hand and hold the pistol only in your shooting hand. The gun should now be directly in your centerline. Test this by slowly bending your elbow until the barrel, near the front sight, touches your nose. (Just make sure the darn thing is unloaded, ok?) You should now be in the position illustrated on pages 21-23 in STL.

The hallmark of the beginning stages of this drill is the square stance, convulsive grip, and the vertical lift.

Use the Q targets, tell students to concentrate on the Q. have them slowly raise the pistol from "low ready" and when they feel on target, have them trigger the shot with a convulsive squeezing of the entire hand. (Yes, I know. It is called milking the grip, and is considered a no-no. However, try it anyway.) The key is to lock the wrist and elbow, and lift only from the shoulder, while focusing your eyes on the exact spot you wish to hit. (See Applegate video, SHOOTING FOR KEEPS for illustration.)

Have them come up and fire the shot after a very slight pause...but without looking for the sights or the gun itself. As they progress, the tempo can be increased. Just make sure that they come down SLOWLY between rounds.

5) Live fire. Start at 8 feet firing single shots. Many find that they are shooting out the Q very quickly and are amazed.
If the shots are going high, have them squeeze the pistol harder, as they would do in combat. Too low? Slow them down.
Off center? Adjust the grip so that it cuts the body's centerline. See page 22 of STL.

6) Now it is time for bursts of two or more shots. Same drill as before, but now trigger two shots as fast as possible.

During breaks stress the importance of practicing with a slight crouch, convulsive grip, focusing in on the target, etc. Why? Because that it what happens quite often in combat, and must be insisted upon in practice. The more real you make it in practice, the more accurate it becomes.

7) After break repeat the basic two drills with one foot forward - which one is no matter - and bid farewell to the "square stance."
It was only meant as a training vehicle, anyway. The rest of the course will be done from the "One hand (So Called Modern) Isosceles. Position". In other words, the "MI" with only one hand. (The important thing is to keep the back heel slightly raised) Or as Applegate called it, the "Forward crouch position." (page 114, KOGK)

Again, both drills with first only one shot at the whistle, then "bursts of two or three."

Now add movement to the method. See page 125 of KOGK for more on this. Since we are not trying to keep a sight picture when moving/running in, we can do so with any natural foot motion. As long as the student is not bouncing, then he is doing fine.

Same drill, but do so while (slowly at first) moving in.

Work up to finally running in at full speed and firing away. The body will soon find that perfect blend of speed and accuracy, without the need for sights. (pages 127-129, KOGK)
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Part 2

Part one takes about 50 rounds or so. All shots should be dead center, and should be covered by the palm of one hand.
We are looking for the ability to hit a man size torso hard, fast and often. As Fairbairn wrote, "Nail driving marksmanship will not cope with such (Firefights as described on pages 2-5 of STL) conditions."

1) Pivot/angle shots. Nearly all shooting schools teach set ways of moving one's feet to engage a target to the flanks/rear. Both Fairbairn and Applegate warned against this. (See page 130, paragraph 2 for the exact quote, which is basically, "The shooter should change his body direction in any natural manner. Stay away from any set method of changing body direction. Terrain is uncertain, and the actual position of the feet in combat may not always be the same…”)

The real trick is not to swing your arm. The pivot and vertical lift should coincide, meaning as soon as your eyes lock on target you should be ready to fire. I should add that a step in after the pivot is a wonderful aid to accuracy and the proper combat mindset.

There are situations when you cannot move your feet at all, but must twist the body to get on target. No problem. But try to step in ASAP after the twist. See page 135 to 136 & the bottom of 138 for details.

2) Marching Drill. Once the student has both right/left and rear pivots down pat, have him walk parallel to a line of targets. Tell him to keep moving with the gun in the ready position" (page 114 of KOGK) and to wheel, turn and move in towards the nearest target "on the whistle."

Watch his feet, so you can blow the whistle sometimes when the left foot is forward, sometimes when the right is advanced.

3) Whether with or without the sights, shooters should be taught to focus/aim at the belly button. (See page 78 of STL for reasons why). You do not want to see a man's face when shooting to "stop", since doing so may slow you down.

4) Multiple targets. Place two targets side by side, about 5 feet apart. Engage them with movement, meaning stepping in to engage each target. Do not pause between shots, but fire only when your eyes lock on each target.

Eventually work up to 4-5 targets staggered at various distances. Good results are surprisingly quick.

5) Use of Cover. See page 147 of KOGK. This is how Fairbairn taught it. For left side he taught to change hands, but Applegate felt that Cirillo's method made more sense. For best results, use the sights with both eyes open, and aim for the navel so gun does not block out the target.

Focus on the exact spot that you want to hit. With practice it is not necessary to have your body "squared" to the target. Where the eyes go, the hands will follow.

6) Zipper drill. Start point shooting--rapid fire--while focusing on the navel. With each "burst of two" focus your eyes a bit higher and higher on the opponent’s body, finishing on the head.

The shots will go where you look, almost as if by magic. The pistol, BTW, should sound like a machinegun.

7) Head shots. Fire two shots into the chest. Without pausing, focus on the head and fire two more. When the 4 shots sound like one, and the headshots are dead center, you are doing it right.

Do not think or pause...just shoot.

Naturally this is a close range technique. But since the head shots are coming from below his eye level, he will never see it coming--as long as you do not PAUSE.

8) Mental Attitude. Be it armed or unarmed combat--that it is not what you do, but how aggressively you do it. See the bottom of page 141 into 143 of KOGK for Applegate's opinions on this vital element.

Whenever I teach a class or read comments that come up concerning some of my posts on other forums (Usually the ones who have banned me) two key objections normally are made.

1) Moving into the enemy. I ran into a guy who took my class a few years back and has since moved to Florida. He told me the story of a cop in Broward county who was recently in a shooting. His gun ran dry and he had to pull his belt buckle mini revolver in .22 caliber. While firing he choose to charge into the BG, firing all the way. Several witnesses reported that the bad guy froze up as the cop was running in and presented an easier target to the officer.

2) Shooting for the stomach area. A recent shooting of a NYPD Captain was related by one of my friends who is a police officer in the 28th PCT and was on the scene. The Captain had his gun out and was about to fire when the punk got off the first shot. The Capt was shot in the stomach area and was literally unable to pull the trigger. He then clutched his stomach, dropped his Glock and collapsed. Thank goodness he survived.

Reread why Fairbairn & Sykes advised to focus in on this area.

Many self-defense experts spend too much time arguing minor points and over analyzing techniques. W should spend more effort heeding the advice of those who have been and done, even if it conflicts with our (untested) cherished beliefs.
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Part 3

One of the flaws of Applegate's method was his insistence on point shoulder (arm fully extended at nose/chin level) over the closer range methods favored by Fairbairn, Sykes and Grant Taylor. Much later on in life Applegate began teaching the 1/2 hip technique, which he called "Body Point."

On his deathbed in 1998 Applegate told Hocking College's Steve Barron that he considered 1/2 hip to be the most vital aspect of combat shooting. It should be noted that this was also the method that McSweeny favored in the majority of his tape.

In most cases when the distance is within 2-3 yards most of my students would go into half hip even though they were never taught it. Fairbairn mentions this on page 4 of STL..."If you have to fire your instinct will be to do so as quickly as possible, and you will probably do it with a bent arm, possibly even from the level of the hip..."

Now deal with 3/4 hip position. page 39 of STL. The ready position that will naturally turn into 3/4 hip.

Face the target at about 9 feet and fire by bringing the gun up by lifting only from the shoulder. In other words, the wrist and elbow remain in the exact position shown. The pistol should be fired in bursts of 2-3 shots at about chest level. The best example of this is the O.S.S. film, where Fairbairn is having the student chamber and fire in one motion. That pretty much shows how to do 3/4 hip from the horse’s mouth, so to speak.

Half-hip - page 123 of KOGK. Look at the small inset picture where the subject has the pistol way off his center line.
That is a perfect illustration of why hip shooting has gotten such a bad rap for decades. As with all but close hip, the pistol should be intersecting your center line. A good photo of the proper method is on page 124 of KOGK, but ignore Applegate's warning as to the dangers of the technique.

Limitations perhaps, but within its proper distance, 1/2 hip is deadly accurate.

The easiest way to get into it is to face the target square (6 foot distance) and hold the pistol in a 2 hand Isoc. position. Slowly bend your elbows until they rest on your ribcage. Release your weak hand and you are now in half hip.

Fire in bursts of 2, 3 and four shots and soon you will be amazed at the accuracy. Then repeat the drills with one foot forward.

Finally, start backing off a step at a time to see how far away from the target you can get with man hitting accuracy.

Close or 1/4 hip - Go to page 47 of STL. The current trend is to rest the gun hand against your ribcage and fire away, but few instructors can agree on exactly where to reference the pistol which is not a good sign because it is easy to lose track of the muzzle during a struggle and shoot yourself. To avoid this Applegate favored to strike the BG with the muzzle and then shoot. With a revolver this is no problem, but a semi auto may go out of battery, so be sure to draw it back slightly before firing. On the whistle I have them execute a left hand face smash while drawing the pistol. Keep your left into in his face, in a real fight it would be clawing, gouging, ripping, etc., and draw your pistol. Thrust the muzzle into the stomach area, pull slightly back and rip off two shots.
It is important to keep your left hand high and the pistol low to avoid shooting your free hand.

Lateral Motion - Applegate cautioned not to give specific methods of moving one's feet, but here is where I break that rule.
Face the target square in a "horse stance". As the pistol is raised do a "In Quartata" . Your left foot comes behind your right foot but DO NOT cross your feet. You should be on balance with your feet shoulder width apart. After the first step keep sidestepping and shooting for a few rounds. Do it righty and lefty, and then practice it with either foot forward.

If you were being charged by a knife/stick armed man you could combine the first step with a muzzle smash to the BG's mouth before shooting.

Drills - With both half and quarter hip you can repeat all of the drills taught in parts 1&2 (with point shoulder) but instead doing them with the closer range methods.

I should mention now that working on a square range, even one that allows up to 180 degree shooting, has its limitations.

Once the basics are mastered you really have to practice either in a "Kill" house, with FATS machine, Airsoft, SIMS or CO2 pistols. )
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Part 4 covers applying these techniques to long arms. But I stop here to stay within post length limits.

As stated above, point shooting is a very old technique and can be learned. I started doing it in 1959 and included it every time I go to the range. The range time is not over until I have put rounds down range, pointing from eye level and closer in from the hip. I practice one handed and two handed. It is not a difficult skill to acquire, but handguns do vary as to where they point.

As a combat Marine and firearms instructor what Outpost75 has posted is about as right on as anything. You can train to be deadly effective in point or instinctive shooting and that’s the point no Sunday school rules apply. It is putting metal on meat ! It is accurate past “arms length “ but remember most violent encounters kick off inside 3 yards and most non war zone attacks are much closer than that . It is absolutely shooting to live. An afternoon with Gabe Suarez (spelling of last name?) will give one plenty of tools to fills ones tool box of essential “living through bang” skills.
Not going into my own both students who I know for sure have had life or death encounters have relayed to me personally that both incidents ended at face to face distance. One unfortunately was fatal for the bad guy; the other the situation ended when my student put his gun in the mans face who was beating him on his own porch. The bad guy stopped throwing punches and waited quietly on his knees for police to arrive. Up close and personal. Death leaves no dignity so don’t let a scum bag kill you!

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Originally Posted by Silver Jack Hammer

The OP states the pics are rotated when posted.
When you say not bad for one inexperienced in point shooting, are you referring to me as the shooter or you as the one commenting?

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You as the shooter. I commeted on what I saw, not an explanation burried in the body of text. If the pictures are inverted, the POI looks to be high and left. Keep practicing, young fellow, you will get there.

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Originally Posted by Dan Cash

You as the shooter. I commeted on what I saw, not an explanation burried in the body of text. If the pictures are inverted, the POI looks to be high and left. Keep practicing, young fellow, you will get there.

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I sent you a PM

Outpost, thanks for posting that. I am glad to see this topic discussed. I would very much like to read the long gun part of that document as well. Long time point shooter and I know it's plenty accurate to 5 yards for me. As a shotgun wing shooter, we always point shoot , only way to hit anything :)

Ok.. Let's cut to the chase. Here it is in a nutshell. The OP or anyone for that matter, *should* practice dry fire, using the sights, until they can drop the hammer and the sights remain motionless.

Once this is accomplished, REMEMBER the exact pull you used with your trigger finger and commit this to memory. It works the same if you are reflex shooting or point shooting, as it is with using the sights.

Right handed shooters tend to pull the front sight low and left when the sear breaks, this can be corrected by learning proper trigger pull in dry fire, using the exercise I described above. Basically remembering to curl the trigger finger slightly back toward the right when pulling the trigger, and trying to avoid pulling the trigger any harder than necessary to break the shot.

I can do this with my Rugers by swapping in a Wolff 30oz. trigger return spring. Removing most or all of the creep from the factory hammer helps IMMENSELY. My 1911s have what I call court-proof triggers that are fairly stiff but clean breaking. I can dry fire them without the sights jumping badly out of alignment. When point shooting, I find that the grip and pull of the trigger finger memorized in dry fire STILL WORKS to let the gun shoot where the forearm is pointing.

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Originally Posted by Silver Jack Hammer

gnostic, I do not agree with your suggestion that my trigger pull was aggressive. It will be a week before I’ll have an opportunity to hit the range and test your theory. I believe the groups to the left are due to my shooting one handed and being right handed. The arm is attached at the shoulder which is off center, holding the gun in front of you the NPA would put the rounds on the left of the target if the backstrap is centered in the hand.

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You surely might be right. There's nothing wrong with an aggressive trigger pull, if 'Time is of the Essence.' When I'm shooting with my right hand, in a hurry, I tend to shoot low left. I do practise weak hand, point shooting, but hitting the USPSA target is good as it gets for me. In a fight, if you look for your sights, you'll be way too slow.

I worked as a law enforcement officer for 10 years before tritium sights came out. We went to this sightless shooting school and practiced, got pretty good at sightless shooting. We were using DA revolvers and our flashlights were not as good as todays. One of us got in a shooting in the dark on a stairway. After the lessons learned from that incident we abandoned sightless shooting We abandoned sightless shooting in practice and instruction and taught and practiced only sighted shooting.

Trigger control might be a good exercise to practice sightless shooting on the range but training for defense the fecal heads require quick action, they don’t hold still and neither do I when the lead hits the fan.

I remember in Seattle, many years ago, the Seattle PD had intel that a truly bad felon was on the 6th or something floor of a building; The team they sent up to get him had much of their pistol team in it. It so happened that he met them going down, as they were going up; Pretty much everyone emptied their weapon in the dark in that stairwell, no one was hit. Not sure what training they had but seems like they needed more. At least no innocents were hurt. Been many years since I heard it so I'm not remembering what happened after that. I imagine they have far better lights and training now, though! (I hope at least.)

FYI: I've found a method for correcting the sideways picture phenomenon. Download the photo and open it with an image editor. MS Windows Paint works fine, but every editor I've tried works. Once open, even if it looks normal, rotate it any direction, and then rotate it back to visually upright. Save it and upload. I have no idea why this works, but it's never failed.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Sheesh

I remember in Seattle, many years ago, the Seattle PD had intel that a truly bad felon was on the 6th or something floor of a building; The team they sent up to get him had much of their pistol team in it. It so happened that he met them going down, as they were going up; Pretty much everyone emptied their weapon in the dark in that stairwell, no one was hit. Not sure what training they had but seems like they needed more. At least no innocents were hurt. Been many years since I heard it so I'm not remembering what happened after that. I imagine they have far better lights and training now, though! (I hope at least.)

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This would have been a different agency