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I loaded this for a defensive round in smooth bore shotguns. It may even be good enough for hunting deer.
http://forums.handloads.com/forum_po...672&PN=1&TPN=2
This load and data is untested and should not be attempted by anyone that is inexperienced in shotgun reloading.
This load may not be safe in any shotgun
Also, the shorty rounds apparently only cycle well in certain shotguns, the 1300 Win. pump seems to work well.
I dont get it why anyone would use a 1-3/4" slug? Just watch your pressures. Its not good to mess around with loads not listed in reloading manuals because pressures can rise real quick and create an unsafe load.
Absolutely Watch your pressures!
A friend had done the same thing with round ball by using a standard shot load recipe (1 1/8 oz. I think), over powder card wad 0.715" round ball and just enough hull left to crimp. He could get something like 10 in a model 12 (that was the goal). So, I figured I would do the same but with a slug load.
I used a loading book recipe for the Lyman Foster except I shortened the hull and of course wasn't using a cushion leg wad.
Loaded a few and found recoil was stout to say the least but then slug loads are usually a little punishing. Loaded some more and took them out to shoot in my single shot slug gun, pulled the trigger the first time and found myself thinking "What the...!!??!!" with the buttstock in my right hand and forearm in my left hand but no barrel. My ears were ringing and I had blood running down my face.
Once I kind of composed myself, I felt around my face but fortunately had just been splattered by debris ~ no serious damage.
I picked up the barrel which was about 10' front of me and went home.
Further examination revealed that I had lead streaks in what was left of the chamber from the end of the shorty hull to the forcing cone. I conluded that the slugs were swelling up as they left the hull, filling the chamber then having to swage down at the forcing cone. Obviously this would cause a pressure spike. These were shorty hulls in a 3" chamber too so a long gap.
Also at play I think is that I did not have the cushion wad leg to allow the initial give and avoid a another pressure spike. BPI reports higher pressures in shorter hulls with same components and I have read that substituting a non cushion leg wad for a cushion leg wad can raise pressures significantly especially with fast powders (PB in this case).
It didn't seem like much of a change at the time but when I check the reference sources I have now it is no surprise that those changes could have raised pressures dramatically.
Longbow
If you read the whole thread, you seen where I did not recommend the load for anyone else simply because I do not have any actual 1 3/4" load data to compare it to. It is very possible that it might damage lesser shotguns. Many shotguns are not designed to even shoot max. loads. I have a Win. Model 59 quail gun that has a lightweight receiver and steel lined glass barrel and I would only shoot field loads in it at the most. That is why I am using a Win. 1300 pump that has a rotating locking bolt.
I did work the load up based on much study and calculation but I do not think it is rocket science. It is not voodoo to learn to load shotgun shells. Yes, changes can increase pressures quite a bit and shotguns are not built to withstand all that much pressure compared to rifles. I feel that this load was safe in my shotgun. That is all the claim I am making.
I am using a cushion wad in place of a non-cushion wad that was in the similar load that I worked this shell up from. I am using CCI 209 primers which are the mildest. The rolled crimp is the same but even the powder load has been scaled way back from the load data that I am using. The Lee Drive Key Slug should not deform a whole lot upon firing. It is a very sturdy slug. Also, I have fired more than just a few. As far as the load being so short, just how short is a 2 3/4" load fired in a 3 1/2" chamber? By the way, in my opinion, PB is not a slug powder.
Other comments are welcome.
The problem is as soon as you post a thread like this with data you developed yourself, You will have everyone that dont know any better running to their MEC to load some up and go try them out because they figure their safe to use. Most here know not to trust any loads that arent approved but theirs always a few that dont and thats what you have to worry about. ALWAYS put a BIG warning in a post like this stating it isnt safe data for all guns because that will make them think about loading them up(Sometimes.LOL.).
PS- You stated that it proably wont be safe for lesser guns and if you think that, Please consider not posting data just to be on the safe side. It would stink hearing of someone injured by using this load. Just my 2 cents worth and please dont take it the wrong way because im not trying to bust chops. Im just trying to save someone from being injured.
If you look under your post at the first reply, You will see in the first reply that a guy wants to try it out and asks you for data. Thats exactly what im talking about. You then go on to give him what he asked for instead of telling him no, Its not safe to give it out and its a personal load ONLY for your gun. I understand you warned them at the bottom but thats not going to keep them from trying it out.
Like I said, if you had read the thread, all of your doubts would have been answered. If someone wants to experiment with things they do not understand and that are over their heads, then I can not stop them, but only discourage it.
If someone is interested in learning from someone else's testing, then how can they learn if we don't post.
Mike, maybe you think there are only a few posters that should have the privilege to share their data and info and I should keep all my findings to myself. Sorry to disagree, but I think not unless you can give me a better reason. I am not wanting to get anyone hurt. I have no intention of that at all. What good would come from these forum discussions if we did not share our findings and experience?
Due to your concerns for the safety of others, I did place a warning on the post.
No offense or criticism meant on my part either. I was just sharing my unpleasant experience to possibly save others from injury.
As you are likely aware, shotguns and loads do not respond like metallic cartridges giving reliable pressure signs plus, small changes can have very large effects on pressures. According to one of my loading manuals just a primer change with certain components can raise pressures to a dangerous level.
Many people are not aware of the specific load recipe requirements for shotguns and just grab any hull, primer and wad for a given powder and shot/slug load.
I agree that PB is not what I would use now but it was a load recipe out of a manual and the changes were that I cut down the hull and replaced the cushion wad with a card wad.
There is much more slug loading info around now than just a few years ago too. I have several manuals, brochures, loads from powder manufacturers and info from other slug loaders. Many old manuals listed PB, Unique, Green Dot and other fast powders for slugs.
I am using mostly Blue Dot currently and lean towards the slower powders.
I also agree that to learn we have to share. I have learned more about slug shooting and loads on this site and a couple of others and from talking to people who do a lot of slug loading and experimenting than I learned in the previous 30 years.
Sharing and learning is what this is all about for me.
Longbow
HamGunner, Like I said, Im not trying to bust chops and I also let others know what I shoot within set guidelines but at no time will I ever give anyone unpublished data that isnt tested safe for use in all guns for that caliber or gauge. Thats for me to experiment with and I dont want noone getting injured on my part because what is safe in my firearm is not safe in another. Im done with my replys here and I appologize if you took offense to my reply's but im just trying to save someone from getting hurt. Thats why we have reloading manuals with data tested under controlled enviroments where noone can get hurt. They get paid the big bucks to do that stuff, Not me. Again, I appologize if you took offfense to this but its not meant that way. Im not here to fight on a post and just trying to help out because theres alot of great safe data out there in manuals.
I am sorry that I felt like I was being jumped on unfairly. I guess it is best to place a bit more caution on just how much detailed info is given out. After thinking it over a bit, I agree that I should have at least stressed that the load I worked up, was not tested in any pressure test barrel. But then, neither are plenty of the shotgun loads and rifle loads in most forums.
Wildcat rounds, until they are given factory interest by popular demand, are not actually given the official go ahead as being safe. Sometimes the pressures are reduced from what was being commonly used and sometimes they are increased. Nonetheless, I do not want to encourage someone to venture into areas that are possibly over their head, so I do, after some consideration and thought, see the concern.
Mike, you might not see why anyone would use a 1 3/4" slug, but apparently enough do that they are sold out at Midway USA. I hope I don't get chastised for posting this. After all you can not say it is untested. Although at only 1,300 to 1,400 fps I would be afraid that they would get stuck in my bore. :)
Oh, and it appears that many shotguns will not cycle the shorty rounds dependably. The 1300 Win. seems to be one of the exceptions. Along with a couple other real shotguns like the Mossberg 590 and the Ithaca 37. :)
http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/Brow...=653***9217***
Um, I arrived a little late...
1300 - 1400 will not likely get stuck in your barrel since these days they are selling the lower recoil "tactical" slugs making 1125-1200 fps. I've goofed on powder charges in the past and had shot loads only barely making 1100 fps.. unless you were talking toungue firmly planted in cheek ;)
Initially I saw the shorty load and was thinking today of trying out a shorty slug load in the 2 to 2 1/4" range with a roll crimp. I figure I'd find something in the 7500-8000 unit pressure range and work from there. Usually at that lower pressure range, I'm well within the limits even if it decides it wants to go to 10,500. It's good to work in some "headroom" just in case. :)
HamGunner,
Thanks for posting this. It's good to see someone experimenting with these shorter rounds. I've bought several boxes of the Aguila short-rounds, I think they are around 1.5" OAL, but they don't cycle my semi-auto shotgun (and Aguila says they won't, right up front).
I'm thinking of taking a slightly different tack than you did. I would like to make some shorter rounds with a reduced payload and velocity.
I'm going to start off with the WAA12R, and I'm not going to cut-off the wad petals at all. I want the wad petals to go all the way around the highest level of shot.
Then, I'm going to find what size buckshot stacks evenly 2x2x2 inside the wad. (I've measured several WAA12Rs and found the inside diameter to be around .635"-.660", with the variation naturally occuring because they're plastic...) In order to assure low-ness of pressures I'm going to go with the Lee .313" size RBs, as they will not even be slip-fit, but a loose fit inside the tightest of these wads.
I'm only going with 6 pellets, because of the shortened wad column and OAL of shell.
I'm going to stick with a fold-crimp, because it lowers pressures and I like the application process. While I've not yet tried applying the fold-crimp to a cut-off shell where there's no memory, I've read where the starter and final crimper stations are designed to create this folded crimp even on fresh plastic with no creases or memory...
For a powder, I'm not going to go as slow as you did, but I'm not going to go as fast as Unique. Probably Herco or SOLO1250, both powders I have on-hand. I also have a quantity of 800X on hand, but I like to save that for my 10mm loads...
Depending on the powder column height combined with the shorter WAA12R, I'm thinking my loads are going to be 2" - 2.25" long, a savings of 3.5" to 5.25" in the magazine.
My main goals here are:
1. Get more shells in the magazine. (Current magazine holds 7; not sure, but I'm guessing I'll gain two with the shortened rounds.)
2. Make a "Tactical" buckshot load. (With the size balls I'm using, it will be 1/2-Ought-Buck [in between #1 Buck and #0 Buck]. The velocity I'm aiming for is 1250fps. I'd like to use buffer to get the best pattern possible, since the payload is reduced.)
3. Make sure the loads cycle the autoloader with 100% reliability.
4. Make sure the loads are safe.
MakeMineA10mm :
thanks for the information and keep us advised about your progress, sounds interesting
Thanks copdills