Replacement Powder for Discontinued AA-8700; very slow stabe burn at low PSI ?

Well, I finally used up all my AA-8700 and you can't get the stuff anymore. Long story short this stuff had a burn rate in the same neighborhood as the double digit reloader series powders that start with "2" but still had good ignition and stable burn at pressure levels all the way down to just south of the 20-K pressure mark provided one used a full case compressed load in a medium size rifle case.

Absolutely perfect stuff for loading plain base WW-alloy rifle boolit loads in 8x57, 308, 8mm-06, 7.62x54R, 303-brit, etc. and pushing them with a gentle long burn curve.

So I'm looking for another powder wit a similar burn rate that will also have stable ignition and burn properties at much lower then normal operating pressures. Most won't and cough, sputter, and blooper load if you try to load them like this with the goal of producing lower peak pressure full barrel length gentle burn curves in non-magnum case sizes.

Anyone out there know one or two that don't? I already know about R-17 and am aware that it has the stable low pressure ignition and burn properties I seek but it is still a lot faster burn rate then what I'm looking for to replace AA-8700. Works great for 7.62x39 and 30-30 case size 100+% case fill compressed loads but is too fast to do this with for the larger medium case sizes gathered around the 30-06 size bracket; I need something slower that has stable ignition and burn properties all the down to 20-K pressure levels like AA-8700 had.

Only the 50 BMG powders come to mind, like what the 8700 is anyway. They are all the "same" speed except for tweaks for specific projectiles and purpose. As far as I know, the caliber has a range of 2700 fps through 3250, the latter prolly not in use anymore. ... felix

wideners dot com has WC867 and WC872 for $49 per 8lb jug.

I use H1000 in the same cartridges,it's very slow. Pat

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Originally Posted by PAT303

I use H1000 in the same cartridges,it's very slow. Pat

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Just pulled some info on H1000 according to the burn rate charts its just a notch slower burning then R-25 and a notch faster then the AA-8700 that I'm used to using. Thank you that is the sort of info I'm looking for.

Do you use full case or full case compressed loads?
Cast boolits on the heavier end of the spectrum?
Have you checked the deviation spread over a Chrony with your loads?
Any sputters, bloopers, or hangfires especially in colder weather?

Just a little more info if you don't mind before I go buy some to try out myself, thank you. :)

I load a full case with 6.5 through 303 and 8x57 and use the heavier boolits.A full case of very slow powder seems to be very effective,the 8mm is very accurate with the Lee maximium boolit over a case full but the recoil knocks me about after a few. Pat

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Originally Posted by PAT303

. . . A full case of very slow powder seems to be very effective, . . .

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My experience exactly when I started using the AA-8700 this way. Much better cast boolit loads then going the other way and using just a few grains of really fast burning powder like a lot of guys do. Have to give credit where credit is due my woman was the one who originally put me on to this method with cast boolits nearly a decade ago. It was completely backwards of most conventional wisdom back then and still is to some extent but the results certainly speak for themselves; sometimes the gals do get things right and we are the ones who have it backwards.

Thanks for the additional info. I'll be picking up a bottle to try out next trip to the reloading store. Will probably also pick up a bottle of one of the various 50-BMG powders as well as Felix suggested.

Anyone else out there who knows of other slow burning powders that have a stable burn at low pressure please continue to chime in; I'd like to have as many options as possible just in case I get the rug yanked out from under me like happened with AA-8700.

I love the idea of the "soft launch" very slow powders. I just never get around to trying them and the idea of using, say, 50 gr's instead of 6...well, the Scot in me rears his head. Makes no real sense, I know. It's just another one of those mental blocks keeping me from true happiness.

I've been as high as 50grns behind the maximum in my little $50 Turk sporter and it shoots as good as I can see at 100.It'll poll axe anything at that range too,she 'ant lacking grunt!!. Pat

Just got off the Hodgdon load site, it appears that H1000 burns a little faster then I initially thought from the burn rate chart I consulted.

http://forums.handloads.com/uploads/...1000_Loads.GIF

The 30-06 was the only cartridge in the size range under discussion that they listed this slow burning of a powder for that I could find. Most likely this is due to the near universality of that cartridge. Granted the loads listed have considerably lower pressure levels then other powders listed for the 30-06 which were between 50-K and 58-K for most of the other loads.

Still looks like gas check with good alloy territory not plain base with throw together alloy to me for cast boolits if you are going to load a full case load.

Not that that is a bad thing, just probably should be limited to smaller case capacity or larger bore diameter then the 30-06 for plain base cast boolit use.

Starting to get a line up here in order of burn rate: R-17, H1000, and then ????


What would be really great is if some powder company would make a series of powders specifically for use with cast boolits that all had good stable burn and ignition properties between about 15-K and 30-K with burn rates stepped out to cover most cartridges with full or nearly full case fill for both handgun and rifle cartridges. Preferably, cooler burning, better metering ball type powders. Since, the size of the balls is a big part of the burn rate control of ball powders you could just make the balls a lot bigger diameter then normal to get the slow burn rates necessary for full case fill combined with low to mid pressure levels. I imagine some would end up having balls about the size of lead shot for shotguns which would be just fine so long as you didn’t confuse the two. But then I'd be dreaming again right.

I have no idea what 8700 was, but to my inexperienced eyes, i am going to throw out imr sr-4759. I do not know how its burn rate compares to your 8700, but it does make a good cast boolit load. I use it in my 300 win mag.

MANY years ago I bought some WC 870 from Bartlet, some AA8700 from Accurate Arms and I could not tell them apart.
Someone gave me a jug of AA8700 last year, and I was wondering what to do with almost 24 pounds of powder.

After reading this I think the 8 mm, 30-06 and 45-70 can digest it all over the next few years.

Like someone up there in NY, I was just cheap to use that much powder to get those velocities and figure it probably fouled more.

It did give some decent velocities (though low for coated bullets) in the 8X57 and 6.5X257 years ago when I tested it.

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Originally Posted by GabbyM

wideners dot com has WC867 and WC872 for $49 per 8lb jug.

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And they say there isn't any real difference between the two - true/false? Is the lower number just a tiny bit faster or vice-a-versa. How the heck do I decide which one to order of two different items for the same price when their description says they are the same? Perhaps my ignorance when it comes to surplus military powders is showing but I'd rather ask a stupid question then not ask a potentially important question because I thought it might be a stupid question. :confused:

I like the fact that it says right in the description to reference load data for AA-8700 for them, that is a good sign for my application needs.

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Originally Posted by XWrench3

. . . i am going to throw out imr sr-4759. . . .

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I'm not saying that using a smaller amount of faster burning powder is wrong . . . if it works for you good . . . just saying I followed a different path to good things and then someone pulled the darn rug out from me and discontinued MY powder.

And yes, IMR SR 4759 is darn good stuff too. I love it for 12ga. shotgun slug loads, you can push full bore extra heavy weight slugs with that stuff as fast or faster then conventional weight slugs while still staying within safe pressures. Also makes an excellent magnum revolver powder for cast boolits in my experience. I just think that if I were to fill up an entire 30-06 case with the stuff and cap it off with a 200gr. cast boolit it might be a little hazardous to my health if I were to touch that thing off and I like to fill cases up all the way or nearly all the way and pick my powder burn rate so that a full case gives me the chamber pressure I desire rather then choose a powder and then adjust the charge down to considerably less then a full case to bring the pressure down to where I want/need it to be.

And if your absolutely still insistent on throwing out the 4759 . . . then send it to me instead . . . you do realize it has to be "properly" disposed of. :P

"Like someone up there in NY, I was just cheap to use that much powder to get those velocities and figure it probably fouled more."

Moi?

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Originally Posted by turbo1889

And they say there isn't any real difference between the two - true/false? Is the lower number just a tiny bit faster or vice-a-versa. How the heck do I decide which one to order of two different items for the same price when their description says they are the same? Perhaps my ignorance when it comes to surplus military powders is showing but I'd rather ask a stupid question then not ask a potentially important question because I thought it might be a stupid question. :confused:

I like the fact that it says right in the description to reference load data for AA-8700 for them, that is a good sign for my application needs.

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I have no information either but as soon as I saw that I figured one was probably to light off tracer rounds or some such aim. Military has several 50 bmg bullets they shoot anymore. Even one that goes bang. It's new powder not pull-down so it should be good stuff.

I thought about it for my 270 but since I've already jumped on a couple new idea powders I have a bunch to shoot up first.

I can tell you that WC872 is a cracker jack cast bullet powder. It is a very slow ball machinegun powder made for the 20mm Vulcan round. It most certainly give a slow push to the bullet instead of a hard spank. When it comes to the alloy bullet getting to the target with it's shape still as designed a low push is what you need.

There are a few considerations when using this powder.

1. This powder needs to be slighly compressed.
2. A case full is what you need for the .308. 30-40, 8mm, 7mm and similiar medium capacity cases.
3. It also works well in larger cases provided you hold the powder charge to around 50 grains and use some PSB on top to give the light compression. It is excellent in the 30-06 when so used.
4. You can't use enough to get into pressure problems, but in cases larger than the aforementioned medium capacity you can get enough velocity to be at the top end of alloy bullet tolerance.
5. In straight cases like the 45-70 this powder also works well, but needs a kicker charge of 1 to 3 grains of medium powder like 4895 or 3031 for a clean burn.
6. When used in smaller bottle neck cases like the 30-30 a kicker charge is also needed to a complete burn.
7. I would not use the powder in any case small than the 30-30 as you won't be able to get enough in to be useful.
8. You want to pour the powder in through a long drop tube or set a block of loaded cases on top of the case tumbler for a couple of seconds to pack the powder down. The price has increased, but it is still a great cast bullet powder if one pays attention to the above. A number of us worked with it a few years ago and the data can still be found on Cast Pics.

A few years back when this tuff was plentiful, I bought eight eight pound jugs. Good stuff!

Your question regarding what powder you might use to replace AA8700 proved to contain the answer to a question that I've had regarding this powder. To be specific, several years ago I bought a Savage 110 in 7mm Rem Mag from a fellow and at that time he threw in a nearly full 8lb jug of AA8700. He'd been using the rifle for match work and had had it tuned for just this purpose. Anyway, since I don't hunt much anymore, I haven't done a lot of reloading for that specific rifle and I've been wondering what to do with all that powder. I posted a query on another of the forums on this site but no one seemed to have any answers for me regarding uses for this powder. But now your question has, in essence, answered my question so now I'll have to start doing some experimenting with some cast bullet loads in my 308, 30/06 and 45/70. Do you have any suggestions as to starting loads for these calibers, assuming that I'll be using either a 170gr or 180gr RCBS boolit in the 308 and 30/06 and either a 340gr or 405gr Lee or 405gr GC RCBS boolit in the 45/70? Any suggestions/tips/warnings would be greatly appreciated.

sleeper1428

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Originally Posted by sleeper1428

. . . I'll have to start doing some experimenting with some cast bullet loads in my 308, 30/06 and 45/70. Do you have any suggestions as to starting loads for these calibers, assuming that I'll be using either a 170gr or 180gr RCBS boolit in the 308 and 30/06 and either a 340gr or 405gr Lee or 405gr GC RCBS boolit in the 45/70? Any suggestions/tips/warnings would be greatly appreciated.

sleeper1428

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For the 30-06 and 45-70 I can do better then just suggestions. Accurate may have discontinued the powder but they still have the load data for it posted on-line:

All Load Data for AA-8700 on the Accurate Powder Web Site
45-70 Load Data for AA-8700
30-06 Load Data for AA-8700

(All are hot links and lead to .pdf files - I recommend saving what you need to your computer since they could take them off their web-site at any time.)

There is no official load data for 308 for this powder put out by Accurate, but if you examine all the load data they have put out for AA-8700 you will find that every load they have in all but the most over-bore cartridges calls for a full case compressed load and that is exactly what works in the 308 as well. If you have any magnum primers that you aren’t using for the big, big cases they are intended for this is the place to use them. They aren’t required for most loads but they usually improve the load and tighten up the groups, which is the opposite of what magnum primers usually do with most powders in medium capacity cases at least in my experience.

I ran into the same disappointment when H-870 was discontinued. I used it for my 7mm Magnum. I could get three shots to touch at 100 every time with the rifle's favorite load. I bought all the AA-8700 I could find to replace the H-870, but haven't tested it yet.

This guy, http://www.gibrass.com/, (click the Gunpowder link at the top of the page) has two ball powders that allegedly use the same data as H-870 and AA-8700. In addition, the price is right.

Regards,

Stew