44-40 Miroku Winchester Rifle off to good start!

Weeks ago I asked for help with my first experiences with 44-40. Thank you to those who jumped in with good advice. This has, so far, been the easiest new caliber and rifle to get up and running with which I have worked. I have been working up loads with a 205 grain bullet cast from a Lee mold long ago custom ordered by Mav Dutchman, a bullet that is a down sized version of my own 45 Colt PRS bullet. These designs are similar to the more refined black powder bullets that John Kort left us. My loading has been with Unique startin with 7 grains working up to 10 grains by 1/2 grain steps. My first noticed symptom of over pressure occured today with very slight flattening of the spent primers. A 5 shot string over my old Chrony had an average velocity of 1,412fps with an an extreme spread of 11fps and if my West Virginia cypher is correct about 911#' of energy. This is hotter than I anticipated although I was sort of dreaming of 1,400fps as a goal. The boolits are cast of approx 95/2.5/2.5 (Lyman #2 cut in half with pure lead) air dropped, powder coated and sized at .430". I do not know how it prints on paper and I really do not care, I shoot off hand at or about 50 yards and smack 6" round steel AR500 with consistent ease. I am going to back off the charge of Unique to about less than or equal to 9.6gr per the current Lyman data and have that as my charge.

prs

Sounds like a good shooter and good load. Congrats.

Great Report...and is pretty close to the following results I achieved.

Keep in mind that the 44-40 cartridge will withstand greater than 18,000 psi, but a particular firearm may not!! 18,000 psi is close to 22,000 cup which was the pressures created by Winchester's 44-40 "High Velocity" loads manufactured exclusively for the Model 92'. Sharpe's 1937 manual claims 30,000 lbs with some loads exceeding 1,900 fps. This is why I caution loaders not to load the 44-40 for velocity because pending powders used, one will far exceed 11,000 psi/13,000 cup (SAAMI MAX) long before 1,300 fps can be reached. Again, FACTORY High Velocity loads reached 1,600 fps @ 22,000 cup for use in the Winchester Model 92'.

Slight flattening of the primers may be seen in the 14,000 psi range (my results with 10gr of Unique) and reflections of chamber cut imperfections may be seen impregnated into the cases at pressures above 15,000 psi

As can be seen in the chart below, Unique gets a little funky above 9.5gr. Taffin has used 10gr of Unique in some large framed revolvers but I don't suggest anything over 9.5gr.

If the shooter is looking for higher velocities, I highly suggest switching to mid-range rifle powders to where velocities will increase and pressures will decrease. Unique is really only good in a rifle out to 100 yards. If the shooter is looking to reach 300 yards, switch to mid-range rifle powders of rifle use.

My Suggestions with Unique, Reloder 7 and IMR4227 (Your mileage may vary)

200gr bullets only

Revolver Use - 8.5gr Unique MAX (11,300psi)
Rifle Use - 8.5gr Unique MAX out to 50 yards (11,300psi) 1,164 fps
Rifle Use - 26.5gr Reloder 7 out to 150 yards (11,300psi) 1,432 fps
Rifle Use - 24gr IMR4227 (Win JSP) out to 300 yards (18,500psi) Winchester Model 92' and Marlin types only 1,600 fps


217gr-220gr

Revolver Use - 7.5gr Unique MAX (11,300psi)
Rifle Use - 7.5gr Unique MAX out to 50 yards (11,300psi)
Rifle Use - 26.5gr Reloder 7 out to 150 yards (13,000psi) 1,400 fps
Rifle Use - 20gr IMR4227 43-215C out to 250 yards (16,500psi) Winchester Model 92' and Marlin types only 1,418fps

Attachment 267829

Interesting ! I got 1355 fps out of that same boolit over 40 grains of black and no signs of overpressure
39 grains gave me 1339 fps
Brass frame Uberti rifle

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Originally Posted by indian joe

Interesting ! I got 1355 fps out of that same boolit over 40 grains of black and no signs of overpressure
39 grains gave me 1339 fps
Brass frame Uberti rifle

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That is because the 40gr BP loads (compressed .21") with 210gr cast bullets only produced about 9,000psi in modern components under "normal conditions". As can be seen in the chart at the link below, different modern components can change the results. Tight chambers, small bores, large diameter bullets as well as 200gr vs 220gr and in between.

Here is a link to my pressure results that includes black powder loads. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L4C.../view?ths=true ALSO NOTE the pressures for older semi-balloonhead cases vs modern cases.

He sure ain't gonna blow up a Japanese 1892 22K loads.

What size is the bore on the Asian rim 44/40's?

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Originally Posted by Savvy Jack

That is because the 40gr BP loads (compressed .21") with 210gr cast bullets only produced about 9,000psi in modern components under "normal conditions". As can be seen in the chart at the link below, different modern components can change the results. Tight chambers, small bores, large diameter bullets as well as 200gr vs 220gr and in between.

Here is a link to my pressure results that includes black powder loads. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L4C.../view?ths=true ALSO NOTE the pressures for older semi-balloonhead cases vs modern cases.

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Bryan
I did that experiment after you mentioned it last time
1960's Vintage Dominion brass 1273 fps ES =18fps
2005 Vintage R P brass 1260 fps ES= 28fps
one outlier in each case pushed the spread out - 39 grains FFFG (different batch of homebrew than the test above)

What do you reckon is going on with those semi balloon head cases to raise pressure? (quite an increase when you look at it as a percentage increase)
It must have happened with my test too - 15 FPS is about worth a grain of powder at these levels........

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Originally Posted by indian joe

Bryan
I did that experiment after you mentioned it last time
1960's Vintage Dominion brass 1273 fps ES =18fps
2005 Vintage R P brass 1260 fps ES= 28fps
one outlier in each case pushed the spread out - 39 grains FFFG (different batch of homebrew than the test above)

What do you reckon is going on with those semi balloon head cases to raise pressure? (quite an increase when you look at it as a percentage increase)
It must have happened with my test too - 15 FPS is about worth a grain of powder at these levels........

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How many shots per test did you make? I am just an amateur going on what others that worked for ammo companies once told me and they preferred at least a ten shot group. If those results are from two ten shot groups then there are some minor issues. If they are from only a few shots, then they are not bad. If they are from two groups of 100 shots, then there could be a definite pressure change.

The real change in my data is from vintage pre-1884 "deep pocket" semi-balloonhead cases (which is a consistent reduction in pressure), to a shallower Western Semi-balloonhead cases, to an even more shallow WRA then REM-UMC to then no balloonhead modern Starline cases.

There is only one theory as to why the pressures are higher and I am most likely wrong. I think it must be the way the powder burns in "two" directions when ignited by the primer. The powder in front of the primer blast and the powder behind the primer blast (in the balloonhead part of the case). I also thought that compressing the powder would increase pressures but it appears the less I compressed, the higher the pressure with the same charge.

It is all still somewhat Greek to me!

For those that may not have seen my results, here are the basics;

20" 1 1/4" diameter barrel, .429" 1:20 twist


Attachment 267862

Attachment 267863

Attachment 267864

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Originally Posted by Scott.M

He sure ain't gonna blow up a Japanese 1892 22K loads.

What size is the bore on the Asian rim 44/40's?

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You got that right!!

The 22K loads were directly manufactured for the Model 92'!

[QUOTE=Savvy Jack;4986026]
How many shots per test did you make?
only did five of each and its ages ago now - did the test, wrote the numbers down................
the outliers could be my loading ..was gonna blame my powder metering technique but they were over velocity not under - could be a fatter boolit, I shoot unsized most of the time.
I am just an amateur going on what others that worked for ammo companies once told me and they preferred at least a ten shot group. If those results are from two ten shot groups then there are some minor issues. If they are from only a few shots, then they are not bad. If they are from two groups of 100 shots, then there could be a definite pressure change.
You're only an amatuer ?? dunno what that makes me - somewhere before preschool I reckon::mrgreen:

The real change in my data is from vintage pre-1884 "deep pocket" semi-balloonhead cases (which is a consistent reduction in pressure), to a shallower Western Semi-balloonhead cases, to an even more shallow WRA then REM-UMC to then no balloonhead modern Starline cases.
You would know those Dominion cases - the primer pocket is a rounded bump inside the base of the case with a recess like a moat around it about 50 - 60 thou difference there as compared to the flat base of a new case.

There is only one theory as to why the pressures are higher and I am most likely wrong. I think it must be the way the powder burns in "two" directions when ignited by the primer. The powder in front of the primer blast and the powder behind the primer blast (in the balloonhead part of the case).
I think you called it - that is the only thing that makes sense - or the thing that makes the best sense - I bet if we could look in there when its happening we would see a swirling flame front something like a toroid shape ...
I also thought that compressing the powder would increase pressures but it appears the less I compressed, the higher the pressure with the same charge.
yeah I was thinking the same - more room in those old cases, less compression = lower velocity .......but it went opposite direction [

It is all still somewhat Greek to me!

......

Another thing is that Swiss FFg gave higher pressures than Goes FFFg. If I would of had some FFFFg I would have tested it.

John Kort had already seen superior performance with Swiss. My batch of Swiss at the time was 40gr weight equaled 40gr volume....Perfect! Goex was giving me about 36gr by weight equaled 40gr by volume....rather than saying poor, I'd rather say "a less quality powder". John started playing with other manufactures but by then I switched to smokeless powders for the High Velocity and other smokeless tests and by then, never looked back to black powder once I discovered Reloder 7 for "Normal" pressure loads.

I know what I know but I don't all the scientific details that John, Ed and those other's know :-(

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Originally Posted by Scott.M

He sure ain't gonna blow up a Japanese 1892 22K loads.

What size is the bore on the Asian rim 44/40's?

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I am aware of that. I was and will limit my upper loading as to not over challenge the cases. I use Starline and they may be more stout than some. I am at work and do not recall off the top of my head what the bore's groove diameter measured, but I seem to recall it was same as SAMMI spec for .44 Mag (is that .428"?) I reported before that the chamber was such that a .430" bullet in the Starline cases have just a tiny little resistance as the action locks -- I reckon that is about perfect. They will extract and re-engage time and again without bullet migration either way (powder coated bullets are SLICK).

prs

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Originally Posted by prs

, but I seem to recall it was same as SAMMI spec for .44 Mag (is that .428"?)
prs

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I think SAAMI calls for .432 -.003 for the 44 Mag and the 44-40 is .427 -.003
I guess that means between .429-.432 and .424-.427

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Originally Posted by Savvy Jack

Another thing is that Swiss FFg gave higher pressures than Goes FFFg. If I would of had some FFFFg I would have tested it.

John Kort had already seen superior performance with Swiss. My batch of Swiss at the time was 40gr weight equaled 40gr volume....Perfect! Goex was giving me about 36gr by weight equaled 40gr by volume....rather than saying poor, I'd rather say "a less quality powder". John started playing with other manufactures but by then I switched to smokeless powders for the High Velocity and other smokeless tests and by then, never looked back to black powder once I discovered Reloder 7 for "Normal" pressure loads.

I know what I know but I don't all the scientific details that John, Ed and those other's know :-(

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I would change your "less quality powder" to less density. I dont think density is necessarily related to quality --- we get good groups, low ES (with careful loading have had that under 10FPS for a ten shot string) and cleaner burning using willow based powder - I rate it better "quality" than goex but can only get density to about 90% of goex (but thats a side issue)

I have 38/40 W rounds loaded for a test of FFFFG against FFFG again only 5 rounds of each and only a chrono test - but carefully weighed charges - new starline brass - same boolit - might take me a while to get aroundtuit but will post here when i do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by indian joe

I would change your "less quality powder" to less density. I dont think density is necessarily related to quality --- we get good groups, low ES (with careful loading have had that under 10FPS for a ten shot string) and cleaner burning using willow based powder - I rate it better "quality" than goex but can only get density to about 90% of goex (but thats a side issue)

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I agree! Less dense would be a better description. Goex is a quality powder but Swiss is better.

Good to hear about your Miroku!! Mine has become an actual living breathing part of me, the 24" 73' blued sporting model. I stick with the old standard of 8grs. Unique for 200's, and these do all I have ever needed done, but if you need more, try some 240's over RL7 for 1300 or so fps, and these are safe in toggle links, and you can't overload anyway at 23.5 sitting at base of bullet gives pressure below max for toggles. For 200's, I've tried the Lee .429's but they will still leave you cleaning out lead all night. I might even go to .431 and see if they chamber smooth, but .430 is sufficient for now, as I have so many to use.

Crumbly, so far .430 is as fat as my chamber takes without resistance in Starline brass. The .430 has just the slightest resistance, but does not slow the action.

prs