Muzzleloader 32-40 barrel ??? will it work

I do not believe the old school guys with false muzzle actually engraved rifling at loading. Ballistics said the old timers (Pope) did not rely on bullet bump up. I beg to differ.
If they did engrave rifling with a false muzzle, I really doubt you could push a bullet down the barrel with a ramrod. It would be like trying to slug your barrel with a hand held ramrod by itself.
Think about it, when you slug your barrel, you actually beat the slug down with a mallet or hammer.
Of course those guys upset, or, obturated, or 'bump up', the bullet, we know they did, it is just that at that time they may not really known, or written down just what was happening.
As far as I know, Elmer Keith was the first guy to write about obturation, or, 'bump up'.
And Elmer Keith came along a long time after Pope.

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Originally Posted by Nobade

The patched bullet is just a touch under bore diameter. Usually it will slide down with the weight of the ramrod.

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With my little project, I'm thinking of a false muzzle that is sort of like a forcing cone in a revolver. (a funnel, if you will)
perhaps with the I.D. of the funnel a .001" under the bore size.
try it to see how much it bumps up.

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Originally Posted by kens

I do not believe the old school guys with false muzzle actually engraved rifling at loading. Ballistics said the old timers (Pope) did not rely on bullet bump up. I beg to differ.
If they did engrave rifling with a false muzzle, I really doubt you could push a bullet down the barrel with a ramrod. It would be like trying to slug your barrel with a hand held ramrod by itself.
Think about it, when you slug your barrel, you actually beat the slug down with a mallet or hammer.

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Actually it’s not so, though maybe it’s due to thinner driving bands, but the Lee REAL does not take much effort to seat after it’s been engraved by the deep round ball grooves.

My .40 is rifled specifically to use engraved boolits. The engraving die is made from a piece of the barrel and threaded to fit in a reloading press.
But now I'm in Indiana and the department of shrub munchers says I have to shoot at least a .44 bore to put venison in the freezer.
:veryconfu

In the .458 bore I use lubed lead 45-70 molds and a .457 push through sizer or the same molds patched and run through the same sizer.
Resuming testing this spring with .52 bores.

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Originally Posted by rodwha

Actually it’s not so, though maybe it’s due to thinner driving bands, but the Lee REAL does not take much effort to seat after it’s been engraved by the deep round ball grooves.

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The Lee REAL is not slick sided, it has driving bands.

Does anyone know of a source (mold) that will drop about a .314 bullet soft lead?
I dont want to drop the money on a custom mold without knowing for sure it will work.
What options might I have?

If you are going to use a lubed lead boolit it might be tough to find a design that will lend the support needed.
For patched I'd be tempted to use a drill bit on a Lee mold as my first experiment.

Whoaa !! that's interesting.
If a 5/16 drill bit is .312, we're already real close.
Do you know of a source for reamer size .314, 315, 316 ??

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Originally Posted by kens

Whoaa !! that's interesting.
If a 5/16 drill bit is .312, we're already real close.
Do you know of a source for reamer size .314, 315, 316 ??

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MSC has decimal size chucking reamers.

I've only fired 500-1000 full bore bullets through my ML so my experience is not that great. A few things Ihave learned.

First, read Ron's sticky above about PP the muzzle loader. I learned a lot from his work and others.

Having lube grooves won't bother paper patching enough to worry about, unless you get to competition level accuracy. Yes, it may be better to use slicks. Both need to be sized correctly. For ML paper patching the bullet with PP needs to be at bore size. You do not want to tear the paper when loading.

Softer lead is best to get the 'bump up' to seal the bore and cut the paper. When leaving the muzzle the goal is a little cloud of paper strips.

I have read of people who PP .30 cal bullets but it is too small for me to play with.

What might be better is bore dia greased bullets.

For either case I would use a card or poly wad, then a lubed felt wad (may not be needed with a greased bullet depending on bullet design), then the bullet.

Yes, the bullet is 'bumped up' to fill the grooves on firing. What is the bore on your rifle? I think a .32-20 is something like .306 bore/.314 groove? If so the .308 bullet will be a little big. You could size it down to bore size and shoot it. (note: I just saw your bore is .314 so you'd need to PP a .308 bullet).

Yes, you could engrave the bullets on loading. I have not had good luck with that method, at least not 1-2 MOA type groups, but, others seem to like bullets like the Great Plains, Lee REAL or others.

This barrel is advertised at .315/.321". I do have some .006" cotten muslin patch material. If I have .310" soft cast (308 style) bullets, plus a single wrap of that thin muslin that would be .310 + .012" = 322. In theory that would be about right. I have yet to recieve or slug the barrel.

As Nobade mentioned above, I could ream out a Lee mold with a 5/16" drill or, a .315 reamer for a slick sided experimental mold.
If you use a slick bullet, and, you use a grease cookie, then why does a paper patch matter?
It seems that if you cover the powder with a hard dry card, then grease the barrel, then load a naked slick, you should be good to go, no?
What difference is it whether you lube the barrel, or, lube the bullet?

Anything is possible. Its a matter of just doing rather than asking if it can be done.

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Originally Posted by kens

Does anyone know of a source (mold) that will drop about a .314 bullet soft lead?
I dont want to drop the money on a custom mold without knowing for sure it will work.
What options might I have?

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You might find someone makes an off-the-peg mould for .318 bullets, for the J-bore version of the 8x57, and even a lubesizer die would be cheaper than a custom mould. Or you could make a simple die. The cheapest way of getting a .315in. reamer is probably 8mm. and I think you could get a good enough .318in. starter section with abrasive paper glued to a metal rod, rolled thick enough to make contact on all sides.

Ned Roberts, the "The Muzzle-loading Caplock Rifle" describes how a false muzzle should be cut from the unreamed barrel, firmly attached with its locating pins, and reamed and rifled integrally with it. He illustrates at least one which is unquestionably rifled, and suggests that the first 3/4in. should be enlarged to total bullet diameter with the ends of the rifling bevelled to permit engagement without rearing the patch. Then he says the bullet starter should force the bullet home. Toggle lever bullet starters are far rarer than plain plungers, but their existence suggests force being required.

I don't know if the false muzzle was used to engrave the bullet to full land depth, and I would think that some false muzzles were smooth. But they were certainly used to engrave the bullet in some cases.

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Originally Posted by kens

Whoaa !! that's interesting.
If a 5/16 drill bit is .312, we're already real close.
Do you know of a source for reamer size .314, 315, 316 ??

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In theory a 5/16 drill makes a 312 hole - like a lot of theories sometimes the result in practice is different :bigsmyl2: I bet most times, you get a hole thats bigger than the drill - give it a light polish to deburr - ya proly on the money.

The problem of using a bare slick bullet is leading. A lot of friction surface and no lube. Lube grooves in a bullet are there to reduce leading. Lube cookies or wads behind the bullet are there to keep the fouling soft. If you kept the velocity very low a slick might be ok.

Muslin will probably fail as patching but it might be worth a try. I suspect it will try to stick to the bullet.

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Originally Posted by charlie b

The problem of using a bare slick bullet is leading. A lot of friction surface and no lube. Lube grooves in a bullet are there to reduce leading. Lube cookies or wads behind the bullet are there to keep the fouling soft. If you kept the velocity very low a slick might be ok.

Muslin will probably fail as patching but it might be worth a try. I suspect it will try to stick to the bullet.

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That's why they need to be paper patched. And no, cloth won't work.

I have shot .45acp bullets out of a round ball barrel with the muslin patch. Worked well inside 100 yards, because I didnt try any farther.
BUT, that was 1:66 twist and deep grooves.
I'm really surprised that a 230gr truncated cone stabilized at all at 1:66.
The muslin patch that I could recover looked to be shredded like you guys speak of the paper patch confetti.
This is why I am anxious to try shallower groove and faster twist, plus, .308 molds are easy to come by.

You probably patched like a round ball? Patch came off like a round ball does. I am a little surprised it did not tumble, but, the 230gn ball is not that long either. Was accuracy good or just on the paper? I've had short bullets tumble and still make 6" groups at 100yds.

I think PP would be reasonable for this. The 2 wraps of onion skin I use adds about .008" to the bullet dia. So, a .308 bullet would fit a .314 bore without any sizing (although sizing to bore dia 'sets' the paper to the bullet).

it was cloth cut in narrow strips and laid over muzzle in a X , then seated bullet. when the X folded up it wrapped the bullet. I greased the cloth
grouped as good as roundball. it is iron sights and my old tired eyes, and ad hoc windy days.
grouped good enough I could tell it was worth hunting with, and now I'm going farther experiment with this little 32-40 thing.

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Originally Posted by indian joe

In theory a 5/16 drill makes a 312 hole - like a lot of theories sometimes the result in practice is different :bigsmyl2: I bet most times, you get a hole thats bigger than the drill - give it a light polish to deburr - ya proly on the money.

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I think that quality drill bits are more accurately dimensioned and sharpened than they used to be. You can get a smooth hole, very close to the drill diameter, by drilling with a couple of undersize drills, and then following up with a drill on which you have oilstone the corners to a fairly small radius.

If you just want to test a combination of diameter, material and patch before laying out cash on a proper mould, you can test these pretty well at close range if the front of the bullet is just drill bit shape, or even filed flat. You don't even need a two-piece mould, with the attendant problem of the bullet sticking if one half is a tiny bit more than half. Just make the first hole in solid metal about ⅛in. in diameter, and you can knock out the bullet with a ⅛in. knockout pin.