burn rate plus recoil

After reading another thread here it got me thinking powder burn rate and how it affects recoil mainly in handgun calibers. I have always thought the faster the powder the more recoil a given load would have. But now I think its more the speed of recoil that is what is more noticeable.
It also seems that calibers in semi autos prefer the faster powders and because of the limited which to me makes the gun feel more snappy during recoil. So in a .45acp and a 230 grain bullet going 850 fps to me feels more uncomfortable than a.45 colt with a 250 grain bullet loaded with a slower powder but still traveling around 950fps.
But where I'm confused lately is lets say you load up the .45 acp with x amount of powder and you load the same charge in a .45 colt the acp still feels more snappy. Is the difference firearms being used? the actual weight of the firearms being used? Or am I just totally wrong on all accounts?[smilie=b:
thanks for the help
bigboredad

The recoil itself is the product of the ejecta of the cartridge, that is, the weight of the projectile, powder, et al.
The perceived recoil is different, and seems more what you are asking.
Here's some examples:
I have an over/under 12 gauge. It will kick you without mercy if you load up some magnum loads or a slug. But my 1100 auto is so soft, you'd swear there must be a much lighter load used.
I have a Sharps .45-70. It weighs 10 lbs. It's not too bad to shoot, other than the crescent buttplate. Put the same load in my sub-7 lb Marlin Guide Gun, and it will make your eyes water.
My 9.5" bbl'd Super Redhawk makes heavy loads fun. Put the same load in a 4-5/8" SBH, and you will think you set off a bomb in your hand.
All that to say, the weight of the gun opposes the recoil of the round fired. The action of the gun can also spread the recoil over time, so it seems lighter. Last, the height of the bbl over the hand (or shoulder) also has some effect.
For those that don't believe it, shoot a 12 gauge. Now back your shoulder up to a tree and shoot the same load. Gonna hurt bad, huh? Cause the tree weighs a lot and won't give an inch when you shoot!
It's hard to tell from what you give why you might think the 45ACP seems to recoil more than the 45 Colt. 1911's tend to twist in the hand due to the rifling, and a heavy boolit giving some reaction when it meets the rifling. So it twists AND recoils. The Colt will too, but a heavier gun and/or bigger handle can affect perceived reciol, too.
Hope that is some help!

I noticed that two or three types of firearms were mentioned a DA, an auto and a single action.
Naturally the recoil is going to be different but guess what; if the recoil in one bothers you than the recoil of the other will bother you too.
The recoil will be so close that , unless one has a problem with low tolerance to recoil , it will be nothing.
A few ounces in gun weight (not talking about a titanium framed 44 mag VS a steel 44 mag etc.) will not make any difference to a seasoned shooter. In the same vein a 240 gr full load VS a 300 gr full load in the same 44 Mag 44 with a seasoned shooter he will do equally as good shooting.
At one time I would have not thought so but after reading about mind set in shooting and shooting well I have found a mind set concerning recoil too.
So small differences in percieved recoil will not make one bit of difference to a shooter with proper mind set concering recoil so really why even think about it.

Perceived recoil is totally person dependent. Big or small hands. Short or fat fingers? How strong are the arms? Some is just preference.
Look at the large lever loops on some lever actions. I hate em. Others love em. I have slender hands so I don't have any trouble with a standard size lever. Guys with bigger mitts like the large lever so their knuckles don't get rapped during recoil.

This is an area with so many variables that it is almost impossible to quantify for certain that A recoils more than B unless the difference is large.

Brad

Caliber, velocity, powder choice, amount and boolit weight all are a factor. The .454 is very snappy and harsh yet a .500 JRH has more back push.
Sure, there is a difference and it is the shooter that can tell. Some will be beat black and blue from a 12 ga while another person can shoot it all day. Some sell a .44 after two shots but the next guy shoots a .500 all day.
I shoot my .475 without a single pain but my friend will have a bruise in his palm after a few shots. He does not have enough hand strength. That gives him fear of recoil.
Your accuracy depends on how you handle recoil and you must lose all fear of it.
Every one is different, no one is built the same. A desk jockey with soft white hands will never do the same as a lumberjack.
I suspect most shooters that are concerned with recoil never had a tough job.

I guess most of us agree that more recoil means taller front sights. in my old Vaquero with a fast powder like 6 grains of American Select and a 340 grain boolit poking along at 750 fps recoils very little compared to a slow powder like w296 pushing that same boolit at 1100 fps. But both shoot to the same POA.... Which is contradictory to my first statement?......frontloader

As I took the question to mean calibers that was very close such as a similar velocity 45 ACP load and a similar velocity 45 Colt load as were produced by slightly different burn rates of powder not the examples given jumping from a 44 Mag to a 475 Linebaugh or a 500 Linebaugh or from a 357 Mag to a 44 Mag I will stand by my answer. Everyone has a recoil tolerance level but the OP was talking about subtile differences of the recoil sensation between a slower powder and a faster powder producing the same or nearly the same velocity. As I take it for example an 800 fps load in a 45 ACP and a 800 fps load with a similar bullet weight in a 45 Colt at roughly the same velocity; one obtained by a somewhat faster powder than the other.
Am I correct or am I wrong??????????????????????????????????????

It makes a significant difference WHERE the maximum force is presented to the barrel. Closer to the hand, the more backward push is prevalent relative to the upward push. This relationship is paramount in the amount of perceived recoil. However, the AVERAGE recoil will be exact same for the exact same velocities, everything else being equal. ... felix

I agree with Felix.
Fast powder can be more "snappy." But slow powder also has more powder and ejecta that has a slower recoil but still heavy.
I can not feel any difference in one powder at 800 fps or another at 800 fps. Only gun weight or configuration will change feel.
Now a fast, lighter boolit from a .454 can feel worse then a heavier boolit even though there is more going down the bore. The difference has as much to do with boolit weight alone and the velocity and place velocity is reached with it. But shoot the same boolit with two powders at the same velocity and you need to be very sensitive to detect a difference.

well I've been blue collar my whole life I've never been afraid of recoil and have been described by friends as being a recoil junky. 44MAG#1 the way you read the question was correct. I guess my post was broad and rambled to. I think the faster the powder the snappier felt recoil will be and a slow burn rate will be more of a push and the weight of a particular gun whether is a .22 or a .500 will show that. I'm not sure where in my post I put that I was afraid of recoil. I don't enjoy getting my trigger finger tore apart to the point of having a big gash which is what happened last week. But a little blood has never scared me. But I think last week happened the way it did in part was because the gun didn't fit my hand very well and I was using a fast powder. Also as 44MAG#1 stated mind set is a very large part of recoil management. My finger was tore up pretty bad and early in my shooting session and each pull of the trigger was painful but I came to shoot and thats what I did. I hit most stuff and realized longer fingers would have been nice that day

It depends on what you call recoil.

If this action causes pain, then I suppose that can be what people look at. But there is a difference between target recoil and sport and game recoil for me.

I see recoil different as I expect those types of recoil. Coarse I am not shooting 18" guns either. Nor do I shoot 400 grain bullets in a light 38 Special. So we can actually be our own worst enemy at times.

For sport or game, I never notice this recoil. I concern myself with the jet recoil effect from slower powders in shorter barrels that result in higher muzzle pressure to move the gun, hand, and arm more after the non-noticed recoil and make it take longer to get back on target. This tends to amplify the psychological effect of recoil for me.

So we all tend to look at different things differently.

There is negligible difference in recoil between a "fast" and a "slow" powder. As charge weights will be slightly more to achieve the same velocity, slow powders will recoil a wee bit more - theoretically.

The human body will not able to detect the time difference between the recoil energy of a fast or slow powder.

Recoil is a function of speed and mass.

The human brain is wonderful and can make you believe in things that have no foundation in reality. If you think a "slower" powder feels better - it does. That is why placebos work.

Don Verna

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dverna

There is negligible difference in recoil between a "fast" and a "slow" powder. As charge weights will be slightly more to achieve the same velocity, slow powders will recoil a wee bit more - theoretically.

The human body will not able to detect the time difference between the recoil energy of a fast or slow powder.

Recoil is a function of speed and mass.

The human brain is wonderful and can make you believe in things that have no foundation in reality. If you think a "slower" powder feels better - it does. That is why placebos work.

Don Verna

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A very good analogy. Many think a charge of Unique is a "light" load but they want 1250 fps. That velocity reached with a slower powder actually feels better and does less boolit damage even though there are a few gr more powder. You can go to 1400 fps with the slow powder without the PUNCH of the fast stuff.
A few buy a .500 S&W but want to turn it into a .38. They show the gun to friends and tell them it is the most powerful revolver but they can't handle it. Put them in a barn, close the doors and they will not hit the walls because the flinch is tearing up the floor.
Hundreds of posts shows they should NOT own the gun! :mrgreen:
I buy guns for what they are and if I want fun with less recoil, I use a smaller gun like the .44 mag. Even then I don't like the light loads that much unless I am can shooting to 50 yards to waste time. Easier and cheaper to grab a .22.

what dverna said holds water . I took my .45 acp and loaded it up with different powders and different powder weights. So when I loaded the magazine I loaded the mag I alternated the different loads. What I found was very interesting as I shot when I concentrated on holding the gun properly and proper trigger control and focusing on the front sight I couldn't tell the loads apart but if I just focused on what the gun was doing I could tell a difference.
For me the only reason I buy faster powders is only for economy. I like to shoot and I shoot a lot and do to recent changes in my life I just can't afford to buy 296/h110 for my revolvers. There was a long period in my life that those were the only powders I bought. But for now if I want to shoot I needed to make some changes and switching powders was easy and since I've started shooting the .45 acp I haven't been able to make 296 work for me so I had to start buying faster powders. I don't know if that means I should not own the gun or not but I do know a air gun is a poor choice for home defense

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigboredad

what dverna said holds water . I took my .45 acp and loaded it up with different powders and different powder weights. So when I loaded the magazine I loaded the mag I alternated the different loads. What I found was very interesting as I shot when I concentrated on holding the gun properly and proper trigger control and focusing on the front sight I couldn't tell the loads apart but if I just focused on what the gun was doing I could tell a difference.
For me the only reason I buy faster powders is only for economy. I like to shoot and I shoot a lot and do to recent changes in my life I just can't afford to buy 296/h110 for my revolvers. There was a long period in my life that those were the only powders I bought. But for now if I want to shoot I needed to make some changes and switching powders was easy and since I've started shooting the .45 acp I haven't been able to make 296 work for me so I had to start buying faster powders. I don't know if that means I should not own the gun or not but I do know a air gun is a poor choice for home defense

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Strange answer since 296 does not work in an ACP.
The 1911 can twist your wrist from sandbags as much as the .475 even with a moderate load of fast powder. That is not from the cartridge but the heavy slide coming back.
Today, a few more gr of powder is not much because brass, primers and lead, gas checks or bullets will make you go broke.